- #1
meteor
- 937
- 0
Which will gain the battle?
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Discussion Overview
The discussion revolves around the concept of a "final theory" in physics, exploring the potential candidates such as M-theory and Loop Quantum Gravity (LQG). Participants debate the nature of these theories, their limitations, and the possibility of a comprehensive framework that could unify various observations in physics.
Discussion Character
- Debate/contested
- Exploratory
- Technical explanation
Main Points Raised
- Some participants suggest that the final theory may be something entirely new that has yet to be named.
- One participant expresses skepticism about the existence of a "final" theory, arguing that any such theory would not provide complete solutions or explanations.
- Another viewpoint proposes that a fusion of existing theories, like M-theory and LQG, may be necessary to address the complexities of physical interactions.
- Concerns are raised about M-theory treating spacetime as a fixed background, which some argue is inconsistent with General Relativity (GR) that describes spacetime as dynamic and influenced by interactions.
- Participants discuss how LQG approaches spacetime as something that is developed from fundamental principles, contrasting it with M-theory's fixed background perspective.
- There is a claim that String Theory and M-theory rely on the curvature of spacetime to explain interactions, but this is challenged by the assertion that M-theory assumes spacetime is already established.
- One participant argues against both M-theory and LQG, suggesting that neither adequately relates to all observations without excessive tweaking, and posits that multiple unknown branches of science must be explored for a suitable final theory.
Areas of Agreement / Disagreement
Participants express a range of views, with no consensus on the viability of M-theory or LQG as a final theory. Disagreement exists regarding the treatment of spacetime in these theories and the necessity of exploring new scientific avenues.
Contextual Notes
Participants highlight limitations in current theories, including their inability to account for all observations without modification. There is an acknowledgment of the complexity involved in defining a final theory, which may depend on yet-to-be-explored scientific concepts.
- #2
Tyger
- 388
- 0
Probably
one we don't even have a name for yet!
one we don't even have a name for yet!
- #3
drag
Science Advisor
- 1,097
- 1
Greetings !
Limmited choices you got there meteor...
I doubt we'll call any theory "final", if at all, for any
considrable amount of time. But, it's possible.
I almost certainly think that such a theory would not,
either way, actually offer any full solution and explanation.
Live long and prosper.
- #4
Brad_Ad23
- 497
- 1
Neither of those can be on its own. It will be some fusion of the two.
- #5
Turtle
- 51
- 0
M-theory, no theory is final it can be improved upon.
- #6
Brad_Ad23
- 497
- 1
but to all you M-theory people...it treats spacetime as an independent background. It doesn't have the necessary dependent background changes that LQG has.
- #7
Mentat
- 3,935
- 3
LONG LIVE M-THEORY!
- #8
Mentat
- 3,935
- 3
Expound please.
- #9
Brad_Ad23
- 497
- 1
M theory still treats spacetime as a fixed background in which interactions play out. But GR tells us otherwise. We know that interactions are shaped in part by the curvature of spacetime, and that in turn also is shaped by the interactions. LQG treats spacetime as something that is developed from the very basics and in which various interactions shape and are altered by it. Lee Somolin (sp) book The Three Roads to Quantum Gravity does a much better job at explaining it than I could right now.
- #10
Mentat
- 3,935
- 3
Actually, String Theory (and of course, M-Theory) is dependent on the idea that the curvature of space is the cause of all interactions. Indeed, the purpose of any hyperspacial theory (including M-Theory) is to explain all of the "forces" as curvatures of spacetime.
- #11
Brad_Ad23
- 497
- 1
Right, I agree. It is the effect of spacetime. But notice that the spacetime is already there in M-theory. Hence it is a fixed background. LQG essentially 'creates' spacetime in its framework.
- #12
I, Brian
I vote against both - each can only relate to a fraction of observations. Tweaking them to death is the exact problem we already have with the standard model. The Final Theory should be able to relate to all observations without all that darn tweaking. Essentially, I say there are multiple unknown branches of science yet to be explored, without which there can be no suitable attempt at a final theory, let alone success with one.
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