atom to have no electrons?

[Gary King]

is it possible for an atom to have no electrons?

[movies]

Sure. This can be done quite easily in the gas phase. In solutions cationic species will be solvated by other molecules, but can be thought of as essentially "electronless."

[vsage]

The easiest example to give are the Hydrogen ions that give acidity to a solution. Those H^+ atoms are just nuclei.

[ZapperZ]

Or consider the alpha particles, as in radiation particles. These are nothing more than bare helium nuclei.

Zz.

[chem_tr]

ZapperZ, I am doubtful about this. When you write the alpha particle, ^{4}_{2}He, you'll see that two electrons are present as this compound is neutral and monoatomic. You'd be correct if this compound were a 2+ ion. Or is there something I don't know?

[vsage]

ZapperZ, I am doubtful about this. When you write the alpha particle, ^{4}_{2}He, you'll see that two electrons are present as this compound is neutral and monoatomic. You'd be correct if this compound were a 2+ ion. Or is there something I don't know?

Didn't rutherford use alpha particles in his gold foil experiment? I don't know if having electrons would have changed his result but I guess I always assumed that The alpha particles deflected off the nuclei of the atoms of the gold because they had a +2e charge. It's been over a year since I touched chemistry though and even then it was only first or second semester general chemistry so there's an exceedingly high probability I don't know what I'm talking about :).

[altered-gravity]

ZapperZ, I am doubtful about this. When you write the alpha particle, ^{4}_{2}He, you'll see that two electrons are present as this compound is neutral and monoatomic. You'd be correct if this compound were a 2+ ion. Or is there something I don't know?

ALpha particles are charged, they can be denoted by ^{4}_{2}He^{2+} or just ^{4}_{2}\alpha. They are generated in the following reaction type:
^{a}_{b}X --> ^{4}_{2}\alpha+^{a-4}_{b-2}Y

They are highly ionisating radiation, and can be defelcted in magnetic fields or accelerated in electric fields.

[chem_tr]

Thank you for this valuable information. One small tip (not important at all), use \longrightarrow in the LaTeX image to obtain ^{a}_{b}X \longrightarrow ^{4}_{2}\alpha+^{a-4}_{b-2}Y

We understand that only small atoms can give all of their electrons; bigger atoms may be persuaded to give most of their electrons to yield unusual charges via core (nuclear) reactions, I think.

[altered-gravity]

\longrightarrow

Thanks! I was trying to find that..

We understand that only small atoms can give all of their electrons; bigger atoms may be persuaded to give most of their electrons to yield unusual charges via core (nuclear) reactions, I think.

Yes, I suppose that it´s difficult to take out the "last" electrons of a big atom due to the high Z value (that causes very low energy values of the first atomic orbitals)

[ZapperZ]

ZapperZ, I am doubtful about this. When you write the alpha particle, ^{4}_{2}He, you'll see that two electrons are present as this compound is neutral and monoatomic. You'd be correct if this compound were a 2+ ion. Or is there something I don't know?

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/AlphaParticle.html

I'm also a certified Radiological Worker 1(OSHA category here in the US) since I work in a radiation controlled area. All the radiation safety training standards have defined "alpha radiation" as the doubly-ionized He.

Zz.

[chem_tr]

Okay, thank you for the information. I didn't know that alpha particle is doubly ionized. So it is different from ordinary helium gas, our high-school-level chemistry courses state that alpha particle is the same as helium, and this doesn't seem to be correct.

[selfAdjoint]

The alpha particle is a helium NUCLEUS, not a helium atom.

[mrjeffy321]

An Atom is: as defined from dictionary.com:

"A unit of matter, the smallest unit of an element, having all the characteristics of that element and consisting of a dense, central, positively charged nucleus surrounded by a system of electrons. The entire structure has an approximate diameter of 10-8 centimeter and characteristically remains undivided in chemical reactions except for limited removal, transfer, or exchange of certain electrons."
so, in my opinion, No, it is not possible for an atom to have no elections becuase first of all it wouldnt be uncharged (which although is not included in the defintion above, needs to be true, other wise it is an ion), and second of all, it wouldnt share all the same characteristics of the element it should belong to, for example, the alpha particle above you all were talking about will not share the same properties as a helium atom will.

[altered-gravity]

first of all it wouldnt be uncharged (which although is not included in the defintion above, needs to be true, other wise it is an ion),

Of course. That´s the correct way of calling it. Nobody doubts that an ion is a completely different system than the neutral species, and that an hellium nucleus is NOT an helium atom.

[mrjeffy321]

well the question was whether it was possible for an atom to have no electrons, not whether protons (and possible neutrons) could exist without electrons.

[ZapperZ]

well the question was whether it was possible for an atom to have no electrons, not whether protons (and possible neutrons) could exist without electrons.

An atom without electrons IS just a lump of protons and neutrons! When you strip away all the electrons, you are left with just the nucleus. You were given two specific examples already.

Zz.

[chem_tr]

ZapperZ is right, but only few examples can be mentioned about this. The most famous one is hydrogen ion, \displaystyle H^+ and the other is alpha particle, \displaystyle ^{4}_{2}He^{2+}.

However, there are not many; the other alternatives are so unstable that we can conclude these two are the only easily available. Please consider \displaystyle Li^{3+},Be^{4+},B^{5+}. Very high amounts of energy have to be given to provide these unusual oxidation states.

[Chronos]

Simple definitions might work here. The number of electrons surrounding the nucleus determine whether or not an atom is electrically charged or neutral. If an atom contains equal numbers of protons and electrons, it is described as being electrically neutral [and elemental]. If it has an unequal number of protons and electrons, it is an ion. An atom totally stripped of electrons is, technically speaking, a positively charged ion.

[altered-gravity]

However, there are not many; the other alternatives are so unstable that we can conclude these two are the only easily available. Please consider \displaystyle Li^{3+},Be^{4+},B^{5+}. Very high amounts of energy have to be given to provide these unusual oxidation states.

Yes, we are talking about fully charged plasmas, theese species are available in high energy physics labs.

Perhaps, those that you mentioned could be produced by laser ablation (firing laser directly to the solid or to a MALDI)in spectroscopy labs but i´m not sure.

[chem_tr]

Perhaps, those that you mentioned could be produced by laser ablation (firing laser directly to the solid or to a MALDI)in spectroscopy labs but i´m not sure.

In a temporary basis, yes, they may occur in a very short time span, and spectroscopy may give indications of their presence. But it is not too easy, as we know.

[ZapperZ]

Yes, we are talking about fully charged plasmas, theese species are available in high energy physics labs.

Perhaps, those that you mentioned could be produced by laser ablation (firing laser directly to the solid or to a MALDI)in spectroscopy labs but i´m not sure.

Laser ablation typically does NOT produce plasma ions. If they do, they would not be used as a technique for thin film depostion since the stoichiometry of the film may be different than the target. There are, of course, exception to this as done at the National Ignition Facility. Here, the plasma is form via extremely intense laser source.

Zz.

[altered-gravity]

Laser ablation typically does NOT produce plasma ions. If they do, they would not be used as a technique for thin film depostion since the stoichiometry of the film may be different than the target. There are, of course, exception to this as done at the National Ignition Facility. Here, the plasma is form via extremely intense laser source.
Zz.

Really? Now I´m confused. I´ve always thougth that the ablation plume was plasma. It´s a mixture of ions, neutrals, electrons.. A college of mine worked in a Pb ionisation experiment with laser ablation mass spectrometer and we always talked about ablation plume as plasma-like. Laser source was a standard commercial pulsed Nd:YAG (freq. doubled). Of course they were not "fully charged" species, Pb2+, Pb3+, neutrals and others.

Am I wrong? If you can clarify this to me I will be grateful. Thanks

[ZapperZ]

Really? Now I´m confused. I´ve always thougth that the ablation plume was plasma. It´s a mixture of ions, neutrals, electrons.. A college of mine worked in a Pb ionisation experiment with laser ablation mass spectrometer and we always talked about ablation plume as plasma-like. Laser source was a standard commercial pulsed Nd:YAG (freq. doubled). Of course they were not "fully charged" species, Pb2+, Pb3+, neutrals and others.

Am I wrong? If you can clarify this to me I will be grateful. Thanks

Humm... I think you may be correct. The laser ablation technique uses a typical eximer laser that do not create a plasma vapor of the ablated material. Thus you preserve the composition of the target material in the thin film that formed. I am using a Nd:YAG laser right now, but not for ablation purposes. Unfortunately, sometime we do "ablate" our photocathode if we set the intensity wrong. But in this case, I have no idea if we created a "plasma" of the ablated material.

Zz.

[altered-gravity]

Thus you preserve the composition of the target material in the thin film that formed
Zz.

Very interesting.. and useful in micro-machining.

Thanks for your time again, your advice is allways wellcome.

[Dual Op Amp]

Couldn't an apha particle be considdered an atom, if so that's a good example. It has two protons, two nuetrons, and no electrons.

[pitchharmonics]

Pull an electron off of the hydrogen atom

[Astronuc]

In nuclear physics and engineering, I believe the convention has been that protons (p) and alpha particles (\alpha) are considered 'subatomic'.

Ions are atoms with more or less than Z electrons - cations (+, have an electron deficiency) and anions (-, have an excess of electrons).

Alpha particles quickly slow down in matter and neutralize to He very quickly.

Even in plasmas, there is constant recombination and ionization.

Negative charges are never too far from positive charges.

[Gokul43201]

is it possible for an atom to have no electrons?

NO. Not by the definition of 'atom'.

You can have neutrons, protons, deuterium/tritium nucleii, alpha particles, etc. which have no electrons, but you wouldn't call any of them an atom.

If your question is really "Is it possible to ionize an atom and remove all its electrons?" the answer to that would be something like "Yes, though it would be extremely difficult for medium to large atoms."

[AFJ]

Hello,
Newbie here. Not a physics guy, so don't blast me. But I have read they are able to bereave atoms in the lab in the completely ionized state. What about the sun or nebulaes--that is believed to be ionized gas isn't it? So there could theoretically be some atoms with no electrons naturally, correct?

[Borek]

So there could theoretically be some atoms with no electrons naturally, correct?

See Gokul's answer just above your post, it addresses your question perfectly.

[Helsingfors]

ZapperZ, I am doubtful about this. When you write the alpha particle, ^{4}_{2}He, you'll see that two electrons are present as this compound is neutral and monoatomic. You'd be correct if this compound were a 2+ ion. Or is there something I don't know?

Surely the symbol you quoted refers to The overall number of Nucleons, and the fact that there are two protons, the rest being neutrons, hence 2 protons and 2 neutrons????

[oldphysicist]

I think it is a very trivial and useless question. Everyone I know considers an "atom" to be the bound state of a nucleus (Z) and some number of electrons. It is trivially obvious that bare nuclei can and DO exist, so if you want to call them atoms, go ahead!