Definition of 4-vector quantities

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the definition and properties of 4-vector quantities, including world line 4-vectors, 4-velocity, and gauge potential. Participants explore the concepts of covariant and contravariant indices, their implications in different metrics, and the relativistic momentum formulation.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that covariant and contravariant terminology applies to all 4-vectors, with the first component of covariant vectors typically having a negative sign.
  • One participant describes the mathematical formulation of the length of a 4-vector and its relation to the Lorentz interval, emphasizing the importance of the sign convention.
  • Another participant notes that different metric conventions exist in classical electrodynamics and quantum field theory, contrasting them with those used in general relativity.
  • A participant challenges the classification of a world line as a 4-vector and provides examples of actual 4-vectors, while also discussing the implications of relativistic momentum and mass transformations.
  • There is a suggestion that viewing relativistic momentum from the perspective of unchanged mass and transformed speed could lead to unconventional interpretations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the classification of certain quantities as 4-vectors and the implications of covariant and contravariant indices. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the interpretation of relativistic momentum and the definitions of various 4-vectors.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential misunderstandings of the definitions of 4-vectors and the implications of different metric conventions. The discussion also highlights the complexity of interpreting relativistic effects.

steveurkell
Messages
7
Reaction score
0
Hi,
I just want to share my curiosity
in the definition of 4-vector quantities such as world line 4-vector x^alpha, 4-velocity vect, gauge potential etc. the ones with subscript for indices usually have the first component with negative sign and the ones with superscript for indices have all positive. For position coordinate x, as far as i know, the former is called covariant coordinate while the latter is called contravariant.
Do these covariant -contravariant terminology apply to other 4-vectors (velocity, energy momentum,etc)?
What are actually the differences between the two? I just doubt if the covariant corresponds to Minkowskian space while the contravariant to Euclidean space, is it correct?
Please correct me if there are wrong points in my statements. Thanks
Another my question, the relativistic momentum is p = gamma*m*v, m is rest mass
One is likely to say that the relativisticity of momentum is because the mass is relativistic, that is m' = gamma*m. Can we see this point from other perspective (though I am not quite sure if it is right), that the speed has been transformed to gamma*v while m is unchanged?
these must be simple questions for many of you
thanks for any help
regards
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Covariant and contravariant apply to all 4 vectors. Here's the rationale behind the minus sign.

The length of a 4-vector is defined to be

[tex]\sum_{a=1}^{4} x^a x_a[/tex]

Let's say our 4-vector is t,x,y,z. When you preform the sum with the sign conventions you've already described, you get

-t^2 + x^2 + y^2 + z^2

which is the Lorentz interval (with c=1 - the first comonet also gets multiplied by 'c' if you are not using geometric units with c=1)

Without the sign inversion, the length of the 4-vector wouldn't be its Lorentz interval.

In general one performs index lowering like this:
[tex]x_a = \sum_{a=1}^4 g_{ab} x^b[/tex]

which is usually written in tensor notation without the sum being explicitly written out - tensor notation implicitly assumes that repeated indices where one index is raised and one is lowered are summed, thus we write only

[tex]x_a = g_{ab} x^b[/tex]

Here g_00 = -1, g_11 = g_22 = g_33 = 1 represents the metric coefficients for a flat Minkowskian space-time.

g_ij is called the metric tensor, and as we've just seen it can be used to lower indices. It's matrix inverse, g^ij, is used to raise indices.
 
In classical electrodynamics & QFT,we adopt the other metric convention:

[tex](\hat{g})_{\mu\nu}=\left( \begin{array}{cccc}1&0&0&0\\0&-1&0&0\\0&0&-1&0\\0&0&0&-1\end{array} \right)[/tex]

for which the shorthand notation is

[tex](\hat{g})_{\mu\nu}=\mbox{diag}(+,-,-,-)[/tex]

In the flat limit of GR,indeed the convention & notation are different:

[tex](\hat{\eta})_{\mu\nu}=\left( \begin{array}{cccc}-1&0&0&0\\0&1&0&0\\0&0&1&0\\0&0&0&1\end{array} \right)[/tex]

and a simple analogy with the I-st case would yield the shorthand notation.

Daniel.
 
Last edited:
steveurkell said:
Hi,
I just want to share my curiosity in the definition of 4-vector quantities such as world line 4-vector x^alpha, 4-velocity vect, gauge potential etc.
A wordline is not a 4-vector. Examples that come to mind are the spacetime displacement 4-vector, The Lorentx 4-vector, the 4-vector of a four vector is the charge-current-4vector and the number 4-density f-vector. the ones with subscript for indices usually have the first component with negative sign and the ones with superscript for indices have all positive. For position coordinate x, as far as i know, the former is called covariant coordinate while the latter is called contravariant.
One is likely to say that the relativisticity of momentum is because the mass is relativistic, that is m' = gamma*m. Can we see this point from other perspective (though I am not quite sure if it is right), that the speed has been transformed to gamma*v while m is unchanged?
these must be simple questions for many of you
thanks for any help
regards
That a way of looking at things which cab provide weird interpretations. E.g. if I take the 4-velocity of a particle and dot it with Pete's 4-velocity then the redsult will be a tensor called a tensor of rank 0.

Now take the example of a type two tensor A(_,_) (A map of basis vectors , i.e. a basis set which maps tensors of rank 1 to scalars of rank two then the result is a tensor of rank 3. denote these basis vecotrs by e_1, e_2. Therefore A(e_1,e_2) is a scalar and is labeled A_{e_1,e_2)\

Pete
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 53 ·
2
Replies
53
Views
4K
  • · Replies 34 ·
2
Replies
34
Views
4K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
3K