Perpetual Motion within an atom?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of perpetual motion within atoms, particularly focusing on the behavior of electrons and their energy states. Participants explore the implications of atomic structure and quantum mechanics, questioning whether the motion of electrons could be considered perpetual and how this relates to thermodynamic laws.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that if electrons are in constant motion around an atom, it could imply perpetual motion, as there appears to be no friction to slow them down.
  • Others argue that the concept of perpetual motion is fundamentally flawed due to the second law of thermodynamics, which states that work cannot be extracted from a perpetual motion machine while leaving it in its original state.
  • One participant emphasizes that electrons do not orbit the nucleus in circular paths, referencing the Bohr model as a simplification and noting that quantum mechanics describes electron positions probabilistically.
  • Another participant questions the applicability of thermodynamic laws, suggesting that they primarily pertain to macroscopic systems and may not be relevant to atomic-scale systems like hydrogen atoms.
  • Some participants express confusion about the implications of energy conservation in atomic processes, with one seeking clarification on the relationship between energy states and photon interactions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit disagreement regarding the interpretation of atomic behavior and the applicability of thermodynamic principles to atomic systems. There is no consensus on whether the motion of electrons can be classified as perpetual or how thermodynamics relates to atomic interactions.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include varying interpretations of quantum mechanics and thermodynamics, as well as assumptions about the nature of atomic interactions that remain unresolved. Some participants acknowledge gaps in their understanding of these concepts.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to students and enthusiasts of physics, particularly those exploring atomic theory, quantum mechanics, and thermodynamics.

d3jake
[SOLVED] Perpetual Motion within an atom?

I have something to add to this. Since I don't quite understand what the guy above said I'm sorry if I repeat a question of his.
If electrons are goin' around an atom with a balance of kinetic and Potential energy, and they've been spinning since the dawn of time, doesn't that entail perpetual motion? I doubt thay've slowed down any since ther is nothing for them to friction against like in our everyday lives.
I've even asked my physics teacher and he didn't know. (I'm in High School) Then again this is a bit out of his scope I think...
 
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d3jake said:

I've even asked my physics teacher and he didn't know. (I'm in High School) Then again this is a bit out of his scope I think...


Really ?

First of all, atoms (like we know then 'today') have not existed from the very first moments of the big bang because there was too much thermal energy to actually form atoms.

Secondly, electrons do NOT orbit the nucleus in circles. That is the Bohr-model which is a very rude approximation/simplification of reality, yet it does a very good job at describing the most abundant atoms that we know : the H-atom. Besides, QM teaches us that we have a certain probability to find electrons in the orbitals. For example the s-orbital has spherical symmetry which implies that the electron really is everywhere around the atomic nucleus, prior to any measurement.

Thirdly, electrons have an intrinsic quantum number called spin, but that does not imply that they actually orbit their axis, because they do NOT.

Finally, for atoms to 'arise' their must be some energy available. One of the most famous laws is physics is conservation of total energy. This means that in processes the total energy must be the same when you compare the initial and the final state.

marlon
 
d3jake said:
I have something to add to this. Since I don't quite understand what the guy above said I'm sorry if I repeat a question of his.
If electrons are goin' around an atom with a balance of kinetic and Potential energy, and they've been spinning since the dawn of time, doesn't that entail perpetual motion? I doubt thay've slowed down any since ther is nothing for them to friction against like in our everyday lives.
I've even asked my physics teacher and he didn't know. (I'm in High School) Then again this is a bit out of his scope I think...


Good question.

There is also a saying that an object, once in motion, remains in motion. There is nothing inherently wrong with perpetual motion in that sense anyway. The second law of thermodynamics - the one that says you cannot construct a perpetual motion machine (PMM) - covers the critical detail of this: you cannot extract work from a PMM.

So in your analogy, you cannot extract energy from an atom while leaving it in its original state.
 
marlon said:
First of all, atoms (like we know then 'today') have not existed from the very first moments of the big bang because there was too much thermal energy to actually form atoms.

Secondly, electrons do NOT orbit the nucleus in circles.
No friggin' duh! I'm not that stupid.

That is the Bohr-model which is a very rude approximation/simplification of reality, yet it does a very good job at describing the most abundant atoms that we know : the H-atom. Besides, QM teaches us that we have a certain probability to find electrons in the orbitals. For example the s-orbital has spherical symmetry which implies that the electron really is everywhere around the atomic nucleus, prior to any measurement.

Thirdly, electrons have an intrinsic quantum number called spin, but that does not imply that they actually orbit their axis, because they do NOT.
:bugeye: :confused: Would Sombody like to explain that to me?

Finally, for atoms to 'arise' their must be some energy available. One of the most famous laws is physics is conservation of total energy. This means that in processes the total energy must be the same when you compare the initial and the final state.
marlon

Since when did I say anything about that?
 
d3jake said:


Since when did I say anything about that?


Do you even understand the actual question that you asked ?

duhh :rolleyes:

marlon
 
Don't browbeat so much.
 
browbeat, that's a word i did not know. I looked it up in the dictionary...Thanks Meir, for enlarging my English vocabulary.

besides, may i ask what country you are from. Is it Isreal ?

regards
marlon
 
Doesn't thermodynamics deal with macroscopic systems which are build of zillion components?
Thermodynamics first law (conservation of energy) seems to be true for any physical system, but second law actually deals with quantities like entropy and temperature, which are innerently related to systems with many, many components, I don't think it can be applied to a system with only a bunch of constituent parts, like an atom.
In other words, I think a system with only 2 components, like the hydrogen atom, is certainly not claiming to be studied with statistical mechanics.

What do you people think?
(Actually, my knowledge in thermodynamics is very rusted, and I admit I could be plain wrong with my argument. I'd really like to have some confirmation...).
 
heres a great web page giving all the specifics on the Bohr ModelBohr model
I know that every atom has its own unique orbit of electrons pertaining to its elements but Atoms have different energy states such as "ground and excited states" in order for the atom to switch from different energy levels it needs I believe a photon that matches one of the exact energy levels of the orbits of the electrons..anyhow hope it helps some :smile:
 

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