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How big is a photon

by alvaros
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alvaros
#1
Jul15-07, 04:32 PM
P: 166
When a photon is emitted it goes in all directions ? or just in one ? N, S, E..
Or there is a probability you can find it in any direction ?
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olgranpappy
#2
Jul15-07, 05:05 PM
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emitted by what?
alvaros
#3
Jul15-07, 05:24 PM
P: 166
By my body, or by a dipole, or by an excited atom.
Is there any difference ?

Schrodinger's Dog
#4
Jul15-07, 05:40 PM
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How big is a photon

A photon does not have a size in any real terms, it has no mass AFAIK or anyone else does, so if you're talking about how "big" is the wavelength or what is its direction that's not really indicative of size of a photon just it's path after emission, it's an unanswerable question. The question is phrased poorly I think...
meopemuk
#5
Jul15-07, 06:09 PM
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Quote Quote by Schrodinger's Dog View Post
A photon does not have a size in any real terms, it has no mass AFAIK or anyone else does, so if you're talking about how "big" is the wavelength or what is its direction that's not really indicative of size of a photon just it's path after emission, it's an unanswerable question. The question is phrased poorly I think...
This is true. In order to have an answerable question one needs to specify how photons are prepared, where are measuring devices, and what are they measuring. Then quantum mechanics will exactly predict the probabilities of measurement results. Still, QM won't be able to tell what each individual photon will be doing.

Eugene.
alvaros
#6
Jul16-07, 04:28 PM
P: 166
Schrodinger's Dog wrote:
"The question is phrased poorly I think...", shure it is.

The cuestion arises from:

A dipole ( an antenna= aerial ) is just made up by two wires that can be very thin. A dipole receives photons from a surface much bigger than their surface ( length * whidth of the wires ). So, I infer, the photons whose path is not exactly through the wires of the dipole can be "captured". This will give us a size of the photons.

But, if you put another wire in front of your dipole, it will "capture" more photons. "In front" means in the line between the emitter antenna and the receiver. So, whith this device ( a yagui antenna, used to receive TV signals ) you receive photons from a bigger surface.

Where is the limit ?
meopemuk
#7
Jul16-07, 04:51 PM
P: 1,746
Quote Quote by alvaros View Post
Schrodinger's Dog wrote:
"The question is phrased poorly I think...", shure it is.

The cuestion arises from:

A dipole ( an antenna= aerial ) is just made up by two wires that can be very thin. A dipole receives photons from a surface much bigger than their surface ( length * whidth of the wires ). So, I infer, the photons whose path is not exactly through the wires of the dipole can be "captured". This will give us a size of the photons.

But, if you put another wire in front of your dipole, it will "capture" more photons. "In front" means in the line between the emitter antenna and the receiver. So, whith this device ( a yagui antenna, used to receive TV signals ) you receive photons from a bigger surface.

Where is the limit ?
I guess you are confusing the size of the wavelength of photon's wave function with the particle size. The wavelength can be made as large as you wish. Still the photon should be treated as a pointlike particle.

Eugene.
alvaros
#8
Jul16-07, 05:17 PM
P: 166
Quote Quote by meopemuk View Post
I guess you are confusing the size of the wavelength of photon's wave function with the particle size. The wavelength can be made as large as you wish. Still the photon should be treated as a pointlike particle.

Eugene.
No, Im not confusing the size of the wavelength of photon's wave function with the particle size.

The photon cant be a "pointlike particle". Remember the experiments about interference: a single photon goes through two holes.
Schrodinger's Dog
#9
Jul16-07, 05:30 PM
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Quote Quote by alvaros View Post
No, Im not confusing the size of the wavelength of photon's wave function with the particle size.

The photon cant be a "pointlike particle". Remember the experiments about interference: a single photon goes through two holes.
This is explained by wavelike behaviour: superposition of a wave, not by particle behaviour? I think you need to look at the two slit experiments carefully, they do not suggest a size of a photon at all or particle behaviour as going through both slits.

The photon itself only ever travels through one slit in terms of a single photon experiment and it does so in a random fashion and with a 50/50 certainty as shown by Feynman's two slit experiment.

http://www.upscale.utoronto.ca/Gener...oubleSlit.html
Gza
#10
Jul17-07, 03:41 AM
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Why does this question come up every other post in this forum?
Schrodinger's Dog
#11
Jul17-07, 04:18 AM
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I don't know perhaps the sources people learn from are rubbish or it's hard to get a grip on the implications of the two slit experiment. Whatever the cause I think this could do with a FAQ, but then what would the question? Although the answers are invariably the same, the questions vary widely.

There's already a "does a photon have mass?" FAQ, but it doesn't cover it completely.

http://www.physicsforums.com/showpos...38&postcount=6
lightarrow
#12
Jul17-07, 11:46 AM
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Quote Quote by Gza View Post
Why does this question come up in every other post in this forum?
Because it's related to the essence of QM weirdness and to dualism. If physicists talk about particles, and they never say these particles are in the detector, people will, rightly, think that these particles have to fly from source to detector. Then, the conclusion that they go in both slits is straightforward, as are the strange conclusions about their size.

I would like to tell the OP that, even if not original, his question is not a stupid question; it's the result of QM books/QM lesson's schizophrenic assumptions about particles.
alvaros
#13
Jul17-07, 04:12 PM
P: 166
To Schrodinger's Dog: Thank you for the link "http://www.upscale.utoronto.ca/Gener...oubleSlit.html" but Im not discussing about duality or Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

Define size of photon = surface ( or angle, I dont know ) where it can be detected.

Detector = antenna. The photon is detected if it contributes to the received signal ( if its electromagnetic energy is converted to electric current ).

I think I didnt explain well the cuestion.

A dipole detects photons whose path does not cross the wires. It detects photons whose path is a little up or down the dipole . A parameter of an antenna is the Equivalent Surface.

But if you put another wire in front of the dipole the Equivalent Surface gets bigger.

If you put two wires ... bigger.

The real antennas have a lot of wires in front of the dipole as you can see.

So it seems that if you put enough wires you can detect the photons whose path is 10 m up or down the dipole.

How big is a photon ? ( Where a single photon can be detected ? )

Note that I started the thread from the very beginning: Have the photons a path ?
Proof.Beh
#14
Jul17-07, 05:10 PM
P: 51
Quote Quote by alvaros View Post
How big is a photon ? ( Where a single photon can be detected ? )
It is obvious that your second question has "nowhere" answer. Since the calm mass of a photon is zero and therefor you dont detect a free photon in space (In fact it is a point because of that). Your question like that ask: where a single electron that has observed in space-time? Of course both of them (electron and photon) dont equal together really but indeed, we dont answer to these questions to when dont observe them in nature to form of single. But I think thus.

Thanks.
Mr Beh
marlon
#15
Jul17-07, 05:20 PM
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Quote Quote by alvaros View Post
When a photon is emitted it goes in all directions ? or just in one ? N, S, E..
Or there is a probability you can find it in any direction ?
How does light propagate ? Indeed, isotropically...

Quote Quote by alvaros View Post
No, Im not confusing the size of the wavelength of photon's wave function with the particle size.
The photon size is a concept that does not exist because size is defined in terms of spatial coordinates. A photon however is defined as a chunk of energy. Energy is a concept that is NOT defined in terms of spatial coordinates. Do you see the contradictio in terminis ?
The photon cant be a "pointlike particle". Remember the experiments about interference: a single photon goes through two holes.
Yes it can be because the particle (position and momentum) and wave (wavelength, frequency) nature are dual. They are like two different languages to say the same thing : ie a photon is a chunk of energy.

Besides, in an energy base (the coordinates are now values of energy), the photon is a nice point particle.

marlon
Proof.Beh
#16
Jul18-07, 02:59 AM
P: 51
Quote Quote by marlon View Post

The photon size is a concept that does not exist because size is defined in terms of spatial coordinates. A photon however is defined as a chunk of energy. Energy is a concept that is NOT defined in terms of spatial coordinates. Do you see the contradictio in terminis ?
There is no sense for your answer. If a light ray emits from a lighting source, we allocate to that length, diagonal of light ray etc and know that a light ray made of the number of bounded photons. Then the light has spatial coordinates and thus a photon also is this form.

Thanks.
Mr Beh
marlon
#17
Jul18-07, 05:24 AM
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Quote Quote by Proof.Beh View Post
There is no sense for your answer. If a light ray emits from a lighting source, we allocate to that length, diagonal of light ray etc and know that a light ray made of the number of bounded photons.
Yes but that does not imply the photon is a point particle in coordinate space, ie a particle with finite sized soatial boundaries. THAT is the point i was trying to make.

besides, what are "bounded" photons. I always thought that photons do NOT mutually interact (at least up the the first orders of EM interaction).


Then the light has spatial coordinates and thus a photon also is this form.

Thanks.
Mr Beh
How on earth can you make this conclusion. Not only that, you are also talking about a photon's form. What is that ?

When you talk about form in this context, you are talking about a shape defined by finite spatial boundaries. A photon is NOT defined in this way. If you do not agree with me, i politely ask you to provide me with such a definition. Realise that you cannot use the wavelike photon concept to answer that question because of the reasons in gave in my previous post.


marlon
Anonym
#18
Jul18-07, 07:29 AM
P: 451
Quote Quote by marlon View Post
The photon size is a concept that does not exist because size is defined in terms of spatial coordinates. A photon however is defined as a chunk of energy. Energy is a concept that is NOT defined in terms of spatial coordinates.
You repeat the same statements that you made about year ago. It reminds me the attitude of the average engineer. Energy is eigenvalue (diagonal matrix element) of the Hamiltonian operator when the QM state is the function of space-time coordinates. Moreover, it is the most fundamental conserved quantity. I suggest starting study of quantum theory.

To begin with it is useful to read posts in “size of photon particle” and M&W after that.

Regards, Dany.


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