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Water H2O convert to Hydrogen peroxide H2O2

by Jacquesl
Tags: convert, h2o2, hydrogen, peroxide, water
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Jacquesl
#1
Dec14-06, 08:49 AM
P: 136
Does anyone know how to take Water H2O and convert it to Hydrogen peroxide H2O2, so basally I want to add another oxygen molecule to the existing oxygen molecule? I want to use the Hydrogen peroxide for a fuel, cheap fuel, donít want to buy petroleum products anymore and I care about the world also a bit.
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Gokul43201
#2
Dec14-06, 09:56 AM
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This is a completely useless quest. To use hydrogen peroxide as a fuel (monopropellant), you are essentially decomposing it into water and oxygen. You will get back no more than the enrgy you put in to make the peroxide out of water in the first place! And where are you going to get the energy to do that from?

If you want to reduce consumption of petroleum products, consider renewable sources like solar or wind energy.
Jheriko
#3
Dec14-06, 09:57 AM
P: 154
This might get a better response in the Chemistry forum...

EDIT: no offense to the response above, it just wasn't there when I first posted.


Also... nuclear power ftw! Damned nuclear protesters need to realise that THEY are the reason we are still pumping the poisonous remains of burned gas, coal and oil into the atmosphere. Probably no good for a car though... at least whilst protesters are busily crippling research efforts.

Jacquesl
#4
Dec14-06, 01:03 PM
P: 136
Water H2O convert to Hydrogen peroxide H2O2

Gokul43201, Will this be like to make hydrogen using huge amounts of electricity in the Electrolysis process.
So basically converting the energy into usable another form.
So if you know the process, you’re welcome to tell me.
The energy I’m going to get out of the mains if I understand you correct.

I’ve seen something like a hydrogen peroxide car and rockets and stuff.
grome22
#5
Oct5-07, 08:26 AM
P: 2
Is there a way to calculate how much energy is required to convert a unit of water to hydrogen and oxygen.

How much energy can be recovered from using that recovered hydrogen and oxygen in a fuel cell.

and how feasible is it?
AbedeuS
#6
Oct5-07, 10:04 AM
P: 134
Electrolysis of water is going to require more energy than the combustion of the products, in essence the electrolysis should have equal energy in theory, but most electrolysis processes are around 50-70% efficient, and combustion of the products will not utilise the released thermal energy 100%, therefore its best just to use the electricity directly in an electric motor, rather than splitting it to use it in a combustion engine.
JGM_14
#7
Oct6-07, 01:30 PM
P: 158
if you are using the heat then that isn't a problem.
some fuel cells aren't very efficent.
The minimum voltage to split water is around 1.5 volts.
1 gallon of water produces about 1300 gallons of H2\O2 gas.
shadowzkillerz
#8
Nov21-07, 01:17 PM
P: 1
It can be converted by using ultra violet rays, so if you have and ultra violet light of some sort. Or, if you live in an area with a large amount of sun then you would need something to filter out other light and only allow the ultra violet rays to hit the water, but make sure it is in a closed container, so that it does not evaporate.
lightarrow
#9
Nov21-07, 03:09 PM
P: 1,520
Quote Quote by Jacquesl View Post
Gokul43201, Will this be like to make hydrogen using huge amounts of electricity in the Electrolysis process.
So basically converting the energy into usable another form.
So if you know the process, youíre welcome to tell me.
The energy Iím going to get out of the mains if I understand you correct.

Iíve seen something like a hydrogen peroxide car and rockets and stuff.
I don't know in your country; here in italy you can buy sodium perborate or percarbonate in supermarkets; you mix it with water...voilŗ [tex]H_2O_2[/tex] (diluted).

If you want to find more concentrated [tex]H_2O_2[/tex] , up to ~ 35%, you can by it in an hardware shop.

You can also make it from [tex]BaO_2[/tex] and [tex]HCl[/tex], or by electrolysis of [tex]H_2SO_4[/tex].

As rocket propellant [tex]H_2O_2[/tex] should be highly cocentrated however (more than 70% according to wikipedia) and in that case it's very dangerous. Don't know how to concentrate it so much.
RockyB
#10
Jun3-08, 12:37 AM
P: 3
H2O2 hydrogen peroxide in a highly concentrated form refered to as HTP, was used as a fuel for torpedos mid-20th century (WWII era). The primary reason for this was that through decomposition with another catalyst, the torpedo could provide it's own oxygen by liberating the additional oxygen molecule, providing oxygen to power a turbine engine which would allow it to operate submersed under water & rendering it relatively difficult to detect. Like you, I did research on H2O2 in consideration of converting my own vehicles. I have since discarded it as unfeasible. From what I've found it would be unnecessarily more expensive and complicated to build & process H2O into H2O2, to purchase & store the decomposition medium, to construct or convert a viable engine, and to keep synthesising more fuel for continued operation. You might want to consider other options. Plus some of the decomposition substances used in the past are highly toxic if not deadly if inhaled (I know from military experience that Hydrazine is particularly nasty stuff). Another problem to contend with is the high heat generated in the H2O2 decomposition process & it's effect on the operation of an engine. Granted this was not so much of a consideration for a expendable torpedo or rocket with an expected short operating lifespan, yet I doubt one would want to take a the chance on a personal vehicle engine explosions.

I presume you are NOT looking for an alternate fuel for an underwater engine anyway. So if you are looking for a cheap replacement fuel (or a partial replacement alternate fuel/petrolum fuel mix to reduce your fuel costs), for say an internal combustion engine, you might be better off going the H2O hydrogen fuel cell route instead. Those types of cells use electrolysis to seperate highly flammable hydrogen from H2O for use as fuel and hydrogen burns extremely clean (Whereas the decomposing compound for an H2O2 engine would probably add to pollution), and you would be much easier to procure fuel. There is more than enough oxygen in ambient air to burn the hydrogen and if you add baking soda to the water being electrolyzed (as opposed to other suggestions such as salt, acids, lye, or other substances), the by-product is oxygen. I should warn you that hydrogen gas is very volitile when mixed with oxygen gas and can self ignite. The electralysis process creates what is called Brown's gas which cannot be stored safely. However there are ways to to construct a system to keep the gases seperated and route the pure hydrogen gas straight into internal combustion system so that it does not combine with the oxygen until just before entering the combustion chamber during the intake cycle.

Another big plus is burning hydrogen does not create carbon emmissions, the con to that pro however is that if smog checks are common in you locality, you could feasibly fail a smog test because if the engine is NOT producing enough pollution (i.e. the test decides that your vehicle must have a leaking exhaust system). So the ability to temporarily adjust, bypass, or shut down the system might be a simpler option to fighting city hall.

Regardless of how nay-sayers respond, a lot of research has gone into synthesizing hydrogen through electrolysis and it is sound physics. Tesla's experiments included such devices. I personally remember seeing similar experiments being conducted in high school science class. It takes less energy to operate one of these types of devices than a vehicle's headlight. Even should you notice the additional drain on the vehicle's charging system, this is easily corrected by installing a high performance alternator. I would also recommend replacing the voltage regulator, preferably with a high performance or adjustable version so you can tweak up the output. If you still notice a problem check your starter for excessive draw, especially with older "broken in" vehicles.

I doubt that the installation a single device is a stand-alone unit sufficient to totally eliminate a need for petroleum fuel. Or that you'll win any drag races with such a device. However, single unit efficiency claims range from 10-90%improvement depending upon the device used, hydrogen output, vehicle weight, etceteras. It may take some experimentation, additional units and/or control/metering/fuel mixing devices to achieve your desired efficiency/performance goal. These units are definitely not the so-called "water injection" devices marketed in the 1980's. These are basically the same type of systems used in hybid vehicles since the beginning of the millinium. The designer of one home-made unit, claimed he purchased a hybrid vehicle solely for the purpose of disassembling it to descern how it worked and was surprised how simple it was to construct a home-made version of an electrolytic fuel cell.

In designing your unit, high grade stainless steel is preferred in constructing the adnoide & cathoids as it is relatively inexpensive, easy to obtain and more resistant to corrosion. Do not use disimilar metals, we are not interested in electroplating or making a battery here. As for servicing intervals, according to sources; in consideration of average privately owned vehicles use, you should only need to reservice the water/baking soda solution about once per month. Fill & drain ports and/or a level reservoir should be considered in your design. The entire unit should be disassembled, inspected for servicability, and cleaned annually.

In an attempt to keep this short(er); for more information & examples of such systems or conceptual help in designing your own, I recommend doing internet searches using the following terms:

"Hotsabi E-cell"
"Joecell Free Energy"
"The Power Tube"
"Brown's gas"
"Stan Meyer" or "Stanley Meyer"

Hope you find this post helpful. By the way I am just a well-read, regular guy with an open mind & no axe to grind who has always loved science & tinkering with stuff. I don't own any stock in any oil companies, I am as disgusted with fossil fuel prices as everyone else, & I have no affiliation with any of the above sources in any way shape or form.
chassiz
#11
Jun16-08, 11:15 AM
P: 9
I actually was working on a method to produce hydrogen peroxide from water using moving magnetic fields. I took this project to the state and international science fair. Basically I borrowed from an austrian scientist Viktor Schauberger as well as some lone R&D russian researchers such as Voeikov...(no sure if that is spelled right), to make a device which generated a vortex in the presence of a very strong moving magnetic field. This spontaneously produced hydrogen peroxide in the water, not a lot, .05ppm peroxide. The fact is, it can be done, and I am currently working on a way to increase output. This project has met with ample resistance from the scientific community, but the results are there.
grome22
#12
Jun16-08, 11:53 PM
P: 2
Quote Quote by shadowzkillerz View Post
It can be converted by using ultra violet rays, so if you have and ultra violet light of some sort. Or, if you live in an area with a large amount of sun then you would need something to filter out other light and only allow the ultra violet rays to hit the water, but make sure it is in a closed container, so that it does not evaporate.
Possible pipe dream here but..

How about outback Australia (specifically the sparsely populated north west). Average daytime temperature in winter is around 28C. (http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averag...w_004019.shtml) Plenty open arid land to build solar panels on/ ultra violet tanks/ wind farms. Close to the sea (supply of water). Capture it the hydrogen in tanks and ship it in bulk to population centres for sale as alternate fuel.

Any comments??
Pat Fisher
#13
Jun18-08, 10:53 AM
P: 2
Try and do some good research at www.hydrogengenerator.com, You may even find me there, LtCFisher.
Hydrogen Fuel Cells or Reactors are easy to make and can produce enough fuel to run your vehicle, heat your home, or even your lawn mower. That I do know, I produce 30 some Liters a minute from one single fuel cell.
the doctor
#14
Jul16-08, 02:52 AM
P: 6
thank you!!!
CRGreathouse
#15
Jul16-08, 02:26 PM
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P: 3,684
Quote Quote by chassiz View Post
I actually was working on a method to produce hydrogen peroxide from water using moving magnetic fields. I took this project to the state and international science fair. Basically I borrowed from an austrian scientist Viktor Schauberger as well as some lone R&D russian researchers such as Voeikov...(no sure if that is spelled right), to make a device which generated a vortex in the presence of a very strong moving magnetic field. This spontaneously produced hydrogen peroxide in the water, not a lot, .05ppm peroxide. The fact is, it can be done, and I am currently working on a way to increase output. This project has met with ample resistance from the scientific community, but the results are there.
So you're powering a very strong magnetic field and moving it across the water, but only generating 50 parts per billion hydrogen peroxide? That's got to be a losing proposition.
CRGreathouse
#16
Jul16-08, 02:30 PM
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Quote Quote by grome22 View Post
Is there a way to calculate how much energy is required to convert a unit of water to hydrogen and oxygen.

How much energy can be recovered from using that recovered hydrogen and oxygen in a fuel cell.

and how feasible is it?
I don't know how efficient electrolysis is, but the process of recovering energy by burning it and capturing it via a turbine has a theoretical limit of around 40% efficiency (35% practical). So a 70% efficient electrolysis process followed by a 35% efficient turbine loses about three-quarters of the power you put in.

It won't ever be a power source, and it's not likely to be a feasible energy storage system (due to low efficiency and potential for explosion).
chassiz
#17
Jul16-08, 05:43 PM
P: 9
Its definitely a waste of energy, but if anything it proves the process works. I conducted my experiment in my high school engineering room, and constructed my peroxide generator out of a plastic trashcan, a specially designed impeller(that housed the magnet), and a motor. I hoped the experiment would be a stepping stone for some further research, but at the state and international science fair it was written off as being "useless".
CRGreathouse
#18
Jul18-08, 02:19 PM
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Did you have a control to test against? With concentrations that low, you'll forgive a bit of skepticism... I hope. If you did convert the water to hydrogen peroxide I'm curious about the mechanism.


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