Has the H1N1 vaccine been scientifically proven to work?

**denverdoc** · Nov25-09, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by Sorry!

Yep, there have been many studies of this nature people just don't like to accept them. Most "side-effects" aren't even really known to be side-effects from the vaccine. Most of the time the two things are unrelated and just coincidental. When you have say 150 million people getting the vaccine in America(I've seen numbers indicating about half of Americans are not getting the vaccine) I think saying that some things are pure coincidence is not far fetched.

What really happens is Joe takes the vaccine and gets a cold, blames it on the vaccine telling Shelley, Shelley decides not worth risk it's (since Joe got sick from the vaccine supposedly she assumes odds are high that she may get sick from it too) and it just spreads like a wild-fire. Some people even make up side-effects and attribute it to the vaccine to try and persuade other people to not get the vaccine...

People just are against vaccinations in general(modern days), however, I remember reading a lot of reports from way back in the day when vaccinations were just making it into general populations. People were EXTREMELY grateful for them... Many diseases that killed many, many children each year were basically scratched out completely from countries... For instance I've had many older family members talk about their siblings who had died from Polio... in fact you'd probably be hard-pressed to talk to any elderly who didn't know someone directly who was effected by polio... IMO, 36 people have negative side-effects out of 6.6 million is a very good result. Regardless of if the virus wouldn't have even continued to kill that many people or if you personally wouldnt' have gotten sick yourself why should we as a country risk it at all?

Welcome to the wonderful world of epidemiology, and even more generally science as a means of informing health policy. Plenty of people in an uproar over the results of the breast cancer screening studies. Evo is right. But...

basically the signal to noise ratio is crap when trying to decipher whether a DPT vaccine given to an infant raises the risk of autism, which has a fairly high background rate in any event and may be subject to numerous confounding variables that may appear to positively correlate--for instance, last I looked, one risk for autism is intelligent parents. But these are the same folks who are more likely to ensure their kids get the vax, and perhaps even more likely to think long and hard about their child's history and wonder, and possibly get on the net and compare stories with other highly intelligent and concerned parents. So the real risk factor is negated by subsequent behaviors that could possibly lead to over reporting and may avoid leveling strategies based on expected value. I just invented this example--please don't take it at face value.

I even run up against this in with nursing students who are convinced vaccines are evil and don't want thei kids vaxxed. They have no idea of the wards filled with iron lungs from the fifties or seen a kid crash and die from H flu meningitis. The whole notion of being commanded to do something, anything, however reasonable and supported by simple risk/benefit analysis, generates an almost autonomic-screw-authority reflex that ends up counterproductive, I engage them in debates, and research activities, but w/o that first hand knowledge, it seems to be lost in some assessment of me being a gullible, establishment tool pushing propoganda. Why can people have such faith in religion without any self-correcting mechanisms iin place over true skepticism. Rant over. Sorry to derail the thread.

**mgb_phys** · Nov25-09, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by Moonbear

I'm not even certain that you're not increasing your risk of catching flu before the vaccine has a chance to take effect just by standing in a long, crowded line of people to get the vaccine.

There was a vaccine clinic at the gym today and that's just what I was thinking.
There was a whole room packed with people waiting for a jab, half of them had colds - I assume the logic is that if you feel a bit unwell it makes you think how bad the flu would be and you go for a jab.

Last I heard there had been one swine flu death in canada of someone who didn't have an underlying medical condition - you are probably more at risk of a traffic accident going to the clinic!
The big killer is probably going to be people put off having the regular flu shot to get the H1N1 first, 'normal' flu kills about 40,000/year in the USA

**Evo** · Nov25-09, 09:54 PM

Oh my God, denverdoc and I are agreeing on more and more things.

I also believe that one of the problems with the younger generation is that thanks to a robust push for vaccinations before they were even born for polio, smallpox, measles, mumps, dyptheria, that they were brought up in an environment relatively free of devastaing childhood diseases. I remember polio, I remember iron lungs. Most people in their 20's have no ideas what this is, even people in their 30's may only have anecdotal tales from an older relative. The reason it's not an issue is because of agressive courses of vaccinations.

The risk from vaccinations is so miniscule compared to the immense good for miilions is stupid, IMO, to even argue.

My older daughter had some reactions and fever to her early child immunizations, so we broke them up into a series of smaller doses spread out, which she was able to tolerate. Just use some common sense, but get your children immunized.

**Evo** · Nov25-09, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by mgb_phys

There was a vaccine clinic at the gym today and that's just what I was thinking.
There was a whole room packed with people waiting for a jab, half of them had colds - I assume the logic is that if you feel a bit unwell it makes you think how bad the flu would be and you go for a jab.

Only healthy people can take the vaccine. It clearly states if you are sick, have a fever, etc... you CANNOT get the vaccine.

Only healthy people are allowed to line up for the vaccine. Who the hell is vaccinating sick people??? They need to be reported. Vaccinating sick people CAN cause a life threatening problem. REPORT THEM!

~~Sorry!~~ · Nov25-09, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by Evo

Only healthy people can take the vaccine. It clearly states if you are sick, have a fever, etc... you CANNOT get the vaccine.

Only healthy people are allowed to line up for the vaccine. Who the hell is vaccinating sick people??? They need to be reported. Vaccinating sick people CAN cause a life threatening problem. REPORT THEM!

Not true with the H1N1 vaccination. When I was sick I decided to stay home and not get the vaccination because I thought they wouldn't allow me to (like a flu shot) but when my family got there my dad talked to the people administering the shots and they said it was perfectly fine for me to go. My family doctor also said it was perfectly fine for me to get the vaccination as well. I didn't go get thought still

**Only if you have a severe illness you shouldn't take the vaccination a mild cold or even being on anti-biotics is still safe to take it, they may administer it in a different fashion though depending on how your illness is effecting your body (stuffed nose for instance)

**mgb_phys** · Nov25-09, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by Evo

Only healthy people can take the vaccine. It clearly states if you are sick, have a fever, etc... you CANNOT get the vaccine.
Only healthy people are allowed to line up for the vaccine.

They were probably lining up to be told that !

The gym is also a community center so it was mostly old people going for the vaccine, all the young people (who are more at risk for H1N1 ?) were going past them to the workout.

**denverdoc** · Nov26-09, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Evo

Oh my God, denverdoc and I are agreeing on more and more things.

I also believe that one of the problems with the younger generation is that thanks to a robust push for vaccinations before they were even born for polio, smallpox, measles, mumps, dyptheria, that they were brought up in an environment relatively free of devastaing childhood diseases. I remember polio, I remember iron lungs. Most people in their 20's have no ideas what this is, even people in their 30's may only have anecdotal tales from an older relative. The reason it's not an issue is because of agressive courses of vaccinations.

The risk from vaccinations is so miniscule compared to the immense good for miilions is stupid, IMO, to even argue.

My older daughter had some reactions and fever to her early child immunizations, so we broke them up into a series of smaller doses spread out, which she was able to tolerate. Just use some common sense, but get your children immunized.

Most ironic IMHO is that the same arguments for drawing conclusions re epidemiology apply doubly to AGW.

But that's a matter for another discussion as to why I can blithely overlook these.......

**ViewsofMars** · Nov26-09, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by mgb_phys

Last I heard there had been one swine flu death in canada of someone who didn't have an underlying medical condition - you are probably more at risk of a traffic accident going to the clinic!

The big killer is probably going to be people put off having the regular flu shot to get the H1N1 first, 'normal' flu kills about 40,000/year in the USA

No auto accidents happened in my locality. (Referencing to my last post.) Motorcycle cops are handsome, vigilant devils who enjoy keeping order. (tee-hee) Infact, a few of them have been known to be sweet to me by sticking out a hand motioning slow down while I was speeding along in my vehicle around town. No traffic tickets as of yet. Community service should first off be "warning" an individual of pending danger.

Mgb_phys, I think you've made a very significant point about the importance of getting a flu shot. Thanks!