Copper/magnetic/ionized bracelets: do they really work, and how?

Ivan Seeking

I mentioned this to Tsu. She said if she does this, it is going to cost someone a lot of Nirvana chocolate.
http://www.nirvanachocolates.com/

If you start sending it now, by next fall you will have made a sufficient deposit for her pain.

Evo

My mother wore the bracelets and swore by them. And she wasn't a flake or open to placebo effects.

GeorginaS

I'd argue that everyone is open to the placebo effect. Further, I'm curious to know why there seems to be a negative association with it. Ivan made one and now Evo with "she wasn't a flake or open to placebo effects". One does not have to be stupid or gullible or a flake or anything at all like that for the placebo effect to work. In fact, I'd argue that one would need to be possessed of a very strong mental capacity to be so effectively neurologically convinced.

Evo

Actually, you're quite correct Georgina.

DaveC426913

But I understand perfectly. You give her one of two bracelets, disguised to look alike. She has a 50:50 chance of getting the real one, and thus is in no pain.

But if she doesn't get the real one, she should be able to tell you. The moment she is sure of her judgement call, the experiment is over and you can give her the real one.

GeorginaS

But here's a thought: why would Tsu and/or Ivan want to mess with something that works? It works. That's all they need to know.

DaveC426913

The issue is: yes, it works, but what if it still works sans bracelet?

Tsu

But I'm telling you that whenever I take it off for any length of time, my shoulder aches to the point of immobility. That's not an option in my job. Hospital patients don't usually just jump right up off of their stretchers and run right over to my CT or xray table. When I put the dang thing on again, the pain recedes within days and I can move again. Does this mean nothing? If meds can be delivered transdermally, why not copper? It's a trace mineral much needed by our bodies. Some disease processes can cause loss of trace minerals. And besides, I like my bilateral green wrist strips.

Now, I'm perfectly willing to accept the possibility of a placebo effect. WHATEVER!! :-) It works for me. So either give it a rest or send me (and my sisters Evo and Georgina ) some Nirvana Chocolates and I'll do your silly test. In fact! - hmmmm..... How 'bout this test: PF pays for an all expenses paid, two week trip for me, Evo, Georgina and Zapper Z to Disneyland!!! Yeah!! Zapper does the bracelet test however he wants, and my sisters are the witnesses. But we want the Zapper Z all cajones grand tour of Disneyland. The Full Mickey!

Deal?

Ivan Seeking

I think the most important point is that a PF test would literally be pseudoscience. Frankly, I am a bit surprised at the suggestion all around.

Tsu telling of her convictions is completely within the guidelines, but her testimony is anecdotal evidence. That has never been disputed.

Copper
The best experimental evidence posted to date is the case study linked, that tested the efficacy of copper bracelets directly. Significant results in the affirmative were indicated. Papers have also been cited suggesting that copper could not only be absorbed through the skin, but also that copper is known to act as an anti-inflammatory. It has also been stated that there are known processes in the liver and intestines, that could explain copper deficiencies measured in the extremities of arthritis sufferers. Note that I posted any qualified information that I could find in the time available, without bias.

Beyond that, it seems that no one here is capable of even providing a map to a complete scientific argument, one way or the other, in terms of the biology, physiology, biochemistry, etc., involved. That being the case, it is clear no one here is knowledgable enough to argue that this can or can't work.

We are done with opinions. Speculation never trumps evidence, so any additional speculation regarding efficacy will be deleted. If you have experimental evidence either way, please post it. So far, the only qualified experimental evidence suggests that copper bracelets can be effective in providing relief to arthritis sufferers. It is further suggested that if bracelets are indeed effective in treating RA, it may be a result of dermal absorption of copper, as the Egyptians posited in 1500 B.C.!

Magnets and "ionized" bracelets
We have seen no experimental evidence that magnetic or ionized bracelets are effective as advertised. Additionally, there is no known scientific basis for suggesting that they could be helpful beyond any peceived value due to the placebo effect, or possibly due to the presence of copper.

If you have used any of these products and care to comment on your experience, be it bad or good, as always, please feel free to share your story.

purepoultry

Hi,

New to the forum. Only joined because I couldn't believe you guys had missed (either intentionally or unintentionally) a trial by my colleagues and I that came out last October. 1st RCT to provide clear evidence that copper bracelets do not work. Featured on TV and in most of the newspapers. Here's the reference:

Richmond, S. J.; Brown, S. R.; Campion, P. D.; Porter, A. J. L.; Moffett, J. A. K.; Jackson, D. A.; Featherstone, V. A.; Taylor, A. J. (2009). "Therapeutic effects of magnetic and copper bracelets in osteoarthritis: A randomised placebo-controlled crossover trial". Complementary Therapies in Medicine 17: 249-256.

Here's a few articles, which report the findings:

Daily Mail

The Wall Street Journal

BBC News

The Herald

NHS Choices

The Telegraph

The Express

Next?

Ivan Seeking

So we have one study that used 45 people, suggesting that copper bracelets don't work, and one using 300 people that suggests that they do work.

Thanks, purepoultry. A link to the original paper would be appreciated. Apparently it didn't appear in a Google Scholar search.

purepoultry

Google scholar does list 5 versions but no worries, here's the link:

Therapeutic effects of magnetic and copper bracelets for osteoarthritis: a randomised placebo controlled crossover trial

The trial by Walker and Keats compared copper bracelets vs aluminium bracelets vs no bracelet. Patients could easily tell the difference between copper and aluminium, due to corrosion and materials (the placebo problem) They also excluded the majority of participants from their analysis. Some because their bracelets were observed to have gained weight (analytical bias). They then concluded that on the remaining bracelets in the trial lost weight on average, in order to support the theory that copper was being leached into the skin.

All 45 patients in the trial we published last year each wore 4 devices in a random order, including a non-magnetic and non-copper bracelet. It was a crossover trial. Although its somewhat of an oversimplification you can consider the statistical power to be roughly equivalent to that of a parallel arm trial with 180 participants. Taking into account the fact that Walker and Keats excluded the majority of trial participants from their analysis, our trial actually had greater statistical power. Note that the average sample size for crossover trials is just 15. A crossover trial with 45 participants is big!

If you don't find the results convincing how about this trial:

Shackel NA, Day RO, Kellett B, Brooks PM. Copper-salicylate gel for pain relief in osteoarthritis: a randomised controlled trial. Med J Aust. 1997 Aug 4;167(3):134-6.

They compared copper gel versus placebo gel - copper should be absorbed much easier than from a bracelet but there was no difference in analgesic effect. Nada, nil. Although some people who used the copper gel did get sick!

I find it interesting, which explains the trial.

Ivan Seeking

Sure, if you know the authors.

Therapeutic effects of magnetic and copper bracelets for osteoarthritis: a randomised placebo controlled crossover trial

Thanks, while I don't assume that the gel study constitutes a definitive comparison, there does seem to be significant evidence that copper bracelets are not effective. This is taking your statements at face value, however. I don't have time to review the information right now.

Are you aware of any other studies?

purepoultry

There is another one on magnetic and copper bracelets for rheumatoid arthritis that we presented last month in Norway, but I do not want to discuss the results prior to publication. Sorry.

OrionVTOL

I don't mean to resurrect a relatively dead thread, but just yesterday I came across a place that sells magnetic bracelets and speaks to their effectiveness. The stories told were impressive. . . . but I couldn't help think about how it sounded like the "snake oil" type thing. But if the testimonials were true, I would have to wonder if they were as a result of the magnets, OR the placebo effect. . . . . . more than that, how many of those who purchased a necklace or bracelet [what percentage] actually had an effect worth telling them [the owners of the shop].

They say they use stones called Magnetite, . . . stones made naturally magnetic by their interactions within volcanos. They claim that they are more powerful than man made magnets and last much longer. I'm guessing they were talking about those refrigerator magnets, not neodynium magnets.

Anyway, I am not here to "pro" or "con" the subject, just add to it.

MagnetDave

Rule 1: "Anecdote" is not the singular of "data." A testimonial and a quarter will get you a cup of coffee (without cream, sugar, or the cup to hold it in). I can think of no other way to say it - testimonials are WORTHLESS. All a testimonial "means" is that someone is willing to say something. There is no need to prove anything. These people have every reason to compel lies and exaggerations. Even if you don't want to assume pure cynicism on the part of the people promoting it, these are not controlled experiments and you have no way to connect cause and effect.

Rule 2: Virtually nothing "natural" is more "powerful" than "man-made." That's why it's man-made. We invented Alnico, ferrite, SmCo, and NdFeB magnets because Magnetite was too wimpy to be useful. Whenever possible, we always try to use things in the most natural state because it's the cheapest. Processing costs money, so we better create some value.

In short, everything you've cited here can be dismissed out of hand without serious examination, just as we would a flat-earther.

OrionVTOL

Yeah, that's how I was reading it, myself. The stories of "how it took away her pain in her shoulder when she started wearing it" seemed a lot like [as I said] the "snake oil saleman".

The merchandise LOOKS nice, for someone who is interested in dark grey/black shiney beads, but if such things really DID work, . . . nearly everyone would be wear them.

Thanks for the input.