The Nuclear Power Thread


by russ_watters
Tags: nuclear, power
mheslep
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#379
Aug10-11, 03:36 PM
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Quote Quote by Joseph Chikva View Post
Your question what we should do with nuclear wastes also out of the forum scope.
No, nuclear waste discussion with some engineering context is not out of scope here ; I find it is encouraged in keeping with other forum rules.
Joseph Chikva
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#380
Aug10-11, 04:32 PM
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Quote Quote by mheslep View Post
No, nuclear waste discussion with some engineering context is not out of scope here ; I find it is encouraged in keeping with other forum rules.
You are right in case if consider technical aspects.
But:
How much do you suppose this hydrogen would cost? Where would you get the carbon from? Where do you put the nuclear waste?
And I do not see here the technical aspects.
zapperzero
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#381
Aug11-11, 03:18 AM
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Quote Quote by Joseph Chikva View Post
Actually, economics adapts to any price. I am 47 and remember time when 1 barrel’s price was 7$ and now that is above 100.
You should also remember,then, passenger cars using 25 liters of gas /100km, then. And oil-fired plants as a mainstay of power generation. And houses heated with heavy oil. And the crisis in the '70s when oil could not be had at ANY price because suddenly the main producers decided they would be better off (economically) keeping it in the ground.

Adaptation exists, to be sure, but it most certainly involves demand destruction.
Joseph Chikva
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Aug11-11, 08:20 AM
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Quote Quote by zapperzero View Post
You should also remember,then, passenger cars using 25 liters of gas /100km, then. And oil-fired plants as a mainstay of power generation. And houses heated with heavy oil.
Passenger cars with gasoline consumption from 3 l/100km to 40l/100 km and may be more (such as Lamborghini, Mazeratti, Ferrari, etc.). But what? If quality of gasoline is acceptable and price is the same what a difference via which technology and from which feedstock that gasoline will be produced?

Who will run heavy oil power plants if we will have cheap and at the same time safe nuke?
Yes, for this we should increase standards of industrial safety on another – more higher level.
But in any case by increasing of oil prices nuke plants will become more competitive.
Astronuc
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Sep7-11, 08:47 AM
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Shaw to sell Westinghouse stake back to Toshiba
http://www.neimagazine.com/story.asp...ryCode=2060563
9/6/2011 5:07:00 PM
Toshiba Corporation is to increase its stake in nuclear power plant vendor Westinghouse Electric Company to 87%, by acquiring all of the shares held by The Shaw Group's subsidiary Nuclear Energy Holdings.
. . . .
Both Shaw and Westinghouse confirmed that the sale would have no impact on any of the four AP1000 nuclear power plants currently under construction in China or the six under contract in the United States. Bernhard said that Shaw ‘fully expects’ to continue working on future AP1000 projects.
. . . .
Once the acquisition of Shaw’s stake in Westinghouse is complete, Toshiba’s stake in the company will increase from 67% to 87%. The remaining shareholders in Westinghouse are Kazakh state-owned company Kazatomprom owning a 10%, and Japan’s Ishikawajima-Hariwa Heavy Industries with the remaining 3%.
I'd expect that Shaw has a lot of NPP experience at this point, so they are a serious player in the NPP supplier market.


In other news: A new probe, the materials analysis particle probe, or MAPP, sees materials interactions in fusion reactors
http://www.neimagazine.com/story.asp...ryCode=2060554
zapperzero
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Sep8-11, 07:04 AM
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Quote Quote by Joseph Chikva View Post
But in any case by increasing of oil prices nuke plants will become more competitive.
Yes. That is true, if the oil prices keep increasing - which is by no means a given. Economic contraction may decrease demand to the point where prices (in real, inflation-adjusted terms) stagnate or even drop.

At which point, no-one would be able/willing to bear the opportunity cost of new NPPs.
unassailable
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#385
Sep8-11, 01:29 PM
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After briefly reading through this thread, it seems we are focusing strictly on nuclear fission.
What about nuclear fusion?
Does everyone think it will be beneficial to implement such a volatile source of power?
With more smaller labs researching cheaper ways to obtain a reaction, how viable will it be as a power source?
mheslep
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Sep8-11, 01:46 PM
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Quote Quote by unassailable View Post
After briefly reading through this thread, it seems we are focusing strictly on nuclear fission.
What about nuclear fusion?
Does everyone think it will be beneficial to implement such a volatile source of power?
With more smaller labs researching cheaper ways to obtain a reaction, how viable will it be as a power source?
There are numerous good fusion threads in the forum. You might search in the Nuclear Engineering forum at large for them.
Joseph Chikva
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Sep8-11, 03:10 PM
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Quote Quote by zapperzero View Post
Yes. That is true, if the oil prices keep increasing - which is by no means a given. Economic contraction may decrease demand to the point where prices (in real, inflation-adjusted terms) stagnate or even drop.

At which point, no-one would be able/willing to bear the opportunity cost of new NPPs.
I am afraid that curling of economic activities about which you write so easily means for example that your computer won't have power supply and you will not can for example posting in the Internet.
Workplaces’ number will sharply be reduced, etc.
Nobody including you will agree with that.
Oil deposits run low. That is fact. Through 40-50-60 years oil will end at all. So, the rise of prices is inevitable.
mheslep
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Sep8-11, 03:40 PM
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Prices are determined not just by supply, but also demand. I think you find yourself hard pressed to find the real price of any commodity increasing over ~100 years or so of its use.
c.f. Figure 1 here on historical price of coal

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/...001.0605v2.pdf

Or here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Simon-Ehrlich.png

Oil here:
http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/oilprice1869.gif
zapperzero
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#389
Sep8-11, 05:26 PM
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Quote Quote by Joseph Chikva View Post
I am afraid that curling of economic activities about which you write so easily means for example that your computer won't have power supply and you will not can for example posting in the Internet.
Workplaces’ number will sharply be reduced, etc.
Nobody including you will agree with that.
Oil deposits run low. That is fact. Through 40-50-60 years oil will end at all. So, the rise of prices is inevitable.
It matters not one whit if I agree.
Employment IS at a historical low in most developed countries.
The oil IS running out. So prices rise, until some buyers are driven to bankruptcy or otherwise forced to stop buying. Then, demand falls and prices go down again. When that happens, those who invested in new production capacity that is only profitable because of high prices go bankrupt too. This will happen to the fancy new NPPs that make process heat for Fischer-Tropsch, if they are ever built.

So overall, production plateaus or declines slowly, while more and more buyers are driven out of the market. Eventually, only plastics manufacturers will be left, they will be the last to switch to natural gas.

My computer does not have a fuel cell. If juice from the wall socket somehow runs out, I will not go "hmm, time to invest in new NPPs". I will set up a few wind turbines or solar panels on the roof of my condo so that my neighbors and I have some juice to charge up mobile phones and laptops, run a couple iceboxes in the basement maybe...
Joseph Chikva
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Sep8-11, 11:27 PM
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Quote Quote by mheslep View Post
Prices are determined not just by supply, but also demand. I think you find yourself hard pressed to find the real price of any commodity increasing over ~100 years or so of its use.
c.f. Figure 1 here on historical price of coal

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/...001.0605v2.pdf

Or here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Simon-Ehrlich.png

Oil here:
http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/oilprice1869.gif
Thanks for my education.
But you are a little late.
Yes price forms on base of ratio on supply and demand.
And oil supply will fall down with permanently growing demand.
Do not drive car, do not grow bread, consequently do not eat, etc.
Luca Bevil
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Sep8-11, 11:37 PM
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Most often fossil based power generation relies on coal or natural gas.

I do not see what is the significance of oil prices, whatever their future course could be, on the economic prospects of NPPs.
Joseph Chikva
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Sep8-11, 11:40 PM
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Quote Quote by zapperzero View Post
It matters not one whit if I agree.
Employment IS at a historical low in most developed countries.
At the expense of fast developing countries e.g. China, India, Brazil, etc.
And I thought that we told about world.
And certainly personally you can try to lead primitive life. But the majority living on the planet would disagree with you and further will use the civilization blessings consuming more and more fuel and electricity.
Have Air Conditioner and do you switch it on when you hot?
mheslep
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Sep9-11, 10:17 AM
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Quote Quote by Luca Bevil View Post
Most often fossil based power generation relies on coal or natural gas.

I do not see what is the significance of oil prices, whatever their future course could be, on the economic prospects of NPPs.
Roughly a third of all energy consumption goes into transportation via petroleum. Fifty years from now, or so, transportation will be largely based on either i) hugely expensive petroleum or equivalent liquefied fossil fuel, ii) electrified transportation which draws power from a grid that will still be dependent to a degree on affordable nuclear power for base load, iii) biofuel. To prevent case i), then ii) or iii) have to become (or continue to be) feasible.
robinson
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Sep9-11, 11:24 AM
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I notice that solar powered electric vehicles is missing from the scenario. As is solar/wind power in general.
Luca Bevil
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Sep9-11, 11:45 AM
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Quote Quote by mheslep View Post
Roughly a third of all energy consumption goes into transportation via petroleum. Fifty years from now, or so, transportation will be largely based on either i) hugely expensive petroleum or equivalent liquefied fossil fuel, ii) electrified transportation which draws power from a grid that will still be dependent to a degree on affordable nuclear power for base load, iii) biofuel. To prevent case i), then ii) or iii) have to become (or continue to be) feasible.
Well.. 50 years from now I can quite easily envisage a smart grid with massive renewable generation...
does it matter to the NPP competitiveness right now ?

I do not think so...
what will in fact matter is the financial crisis felt in these hours and the effect it will have in real interest rates for major (and financially risky) projects around the world, levels of aggregate electric energy demand and so on..

a much shorter time horizon is what guides today's society
edpell
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#396
Sep9-11, 07:08 PM
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Quote Quote by Joseph Chikva View Post
Carbon source in this case will be only the coal gasification in which target reaction is: 2C+O2=>2CO
Farm waste is a good source of carbon we can also get carbon from CO2 in the air.


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