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Were There Ever Empirical Reasons to Bring Human Consciousness into QM? |
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| Mar6-12, 09:44 AM | #1 |
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Were There Ever Empirical Reasons to Bring Human Consciousness into QM?
I'm wondering whether physicists in the 1930's ever had experimental reason to interpret, for example, Schrödinger's cat, as a true paradox (because of the role of a human observer). Why didn't they default to Bohr's interpretation, that an interaction with a geiger-counter, or any classically determined system, counts as an "observation."
Bohr's interpretation would seem to be the common-sense way of looking at the situation--interpretations requiring human-consciousness to be involved (which you can still frequently see in the popular press) would seem to reflect some sort of solipsism on the part of the interpreter. (In much the same way that early religious leaders insisted that the universe had to revolve around the planet where they existed.) |
| Mar6-12, 10:10 AM | #2 |
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But Bohr never said the human consciousness wasn't involved, he merely said that we needn't put the consciousness in separately from how we already do physics. I would say that Bohr, and anyone, can see fairly obviously that the human consciousness is indeed involved in how we do physics, but that is as true classically as in quantum mechanics. Bohr's point was simply that quantum mechanics is subjugated to classical physics, because we need to use our everyday understanding of how classical measurement apparatuses operate before we can even begin to formulate a testable version of quantum mechanics. This makes the paradox go away, because Bohr says that physics is not about what the cat is really doing, it is about what we think the cat is really doing, how we talk about cat behavior in the first place. That's where the human consciousness/intelligence/perceptions comes in (I won't attempt to distinguish those terms since we know so little about them).
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| Mar6-12, 03:42 PM | #3 |
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Here's a response I gave to a similar question in another thread:
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| Mar6-12, 07:32 PM | #4 |
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Were There Ever Empirical Reasons to Bring Human Consciousness into QM?
Thanks. This sort of validates the sense I've been getting that the Von Neumann's of the Physics world in fact do exhibit some of the same Solipsism as that of religious fundamentalists. Also, some of this obsessive interpreting regarding QM effects feels pretty sterile (since it has no predictive value).
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| Mar6-12, 08:15 PM | #5 |
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But there's a funny thing about thinking (obsessing?) about what your theories actually mean-- it can be used to find the problems in them, and indeed, it often has. We're not really in contact with the problems with quantum mechanics, but someday we will be, and it might help a lot to have thought about this stuff.
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| Mar6-12, 08:59 PM | #6 |
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Why human consciousness? Why not just generalize all consciousness since its all only possible because of matter?
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| Mar7-12, 12:02 AM | #7 |
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| Mar7-12, 07:38 AM | #8 |
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| Mar7-12, 10:56 AM | #9 |
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Kind of brings up the discussion, is their any difference between human consciousness and animal consciousness? Which will ultimately lead to religious talk. And whenever religious people have a better explanation than the science, science hasn't advanced enough yet to decide :) |
| Mar7-12, 12:09 PM | #10 |
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I personally think our consciousness comes from our constituent matters, cells, super molecules, molecules, atoms, and finally elementary particles. That is why QM is emphasized in consciousness. This statement is equivalent to saying 'matters or even elementary particles may have certain type (unlike ours) of consciousness. Our consciousness is a collective 'consciousness' (for the lack of correct word) of particles. Unfortunately our current Math is not equipped to uncover this mystery. Modern physics heavily rely on Math, and this Math is totally materialistic, void of any 'sensory system' (again, for the lack of better words). Probably quantum Math with its Wave Function come a little closer to a consciousness world but still far away. |
| Mar7-12, 12:39 PM | #11 |
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http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/neutral-monism/#7.2 I'm not sure what to make of these arguments but in general I think I agree with Strawson's/Russell's/Eddington's statements that are skeptical about progress in this area happening primarily because mathematics (the language of physics) cannot possibly do that: http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/chapte...13102pref2.pdf |
| Mar7-12, 04:20 PM | #12 |
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"Unfortunately our current Math is not equipped to uncover this mystery. Modern physics heavily rely on Math, and this Math is totally materialistic, void of any 'sensory system' (again, for the lack of better words). Probably quantum Math with its Wave Function come a little closer to a consciousness world but still far away."
I like this way of thinking about it, as it seems natural to assume consciousness must rely on some as-yet-discovered physical phenomenon (since the essential aspect of human consciousness--being aware of your awareness--doesn't correlate with any known phenomenon.) |
| Mar7-12, 07:22 PM | #13 |
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| Mar7-12, 07:37 PM | #14 |
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| Mar7-12, 10:07 PM | #15 |
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| Mar8-12, 08:56 AM | #16 |
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| Mar8-12, 09:07 AM | #17 |
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As far as QM goes, you could extend this to both me and my cat take in stimuli and draw some sort of conclusion based on characteristics of the stimuli (e.g., specific wavelength of light). Thus, cat consciousness, at this level, is roughly equivalent to human consciousness. |
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