What is the fabric of the universe?


by petm1
Tags: fabric, universe
phinds
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#19
Jan11-12, 05:33 PM
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Is it just my concept of semantics, or would we, as I believe, all be better off if no one EVERY used the term "fabric" in conjunction with spacetime, but rather used "structure" or some similar concept. "Fabric" carries over unfortunate connotations from standard English.
Drakkith
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#20
Jan11-12, 05:37 PM
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Agreed phinds.
SHISHKABOB
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#21
Jan11-12, 07:30 PM
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When I read about space-time and gravity, the idea I get is that gravity isn't really a "force" when you look at it from the perspective of space-time. It's just an apparent attractive force between two objects of mass. Objects of mass distort the shape of space-time and this distortion causes us to feel the apparent force of gravity.

That's why I'd say that space-time is the "fabric" of reality, because we are sort of sitting in it and "rolling" around in it like the marbles in the bowl with the orange at the bottom.
Cosmo Novice
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#22
Jan12-12, 04:59 AM
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Quote Quote by phinds View Post
Is it just my concept of semantics, or would we, as I believe, all be better off if no one EVERY used the term "fabric" in conjunction with spacetime, but rather used "structure" or some similar concept. "Fabric" carries over unfortunate connotations from standard English.
Yes I think you are right - just wanted to keep in line with the OP. When I say fabric I mean underlying structure which I think does not carry so many obvious connotations.

So to rephrase, IMO geometry is the underlying structure of the Universe - geometry exists in absolute vacuum, so the vacuum requires geometry, it exists in mass and around mass, geometry even exists in Black Holes (at least in terms of extreme curvature.) All a bit mind bending and also kind of philosophical in quantifying these things. Anyway I am musing now with little positive results so I will cease!
Ryan_wazhere
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#23
Jan20-12, 12:19 PM
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Once you hit or run through the surface of Outer space, a thing thats never been touched before, doesnt itconsistantly change what it has been doing so far?It sure would explain the speedy satellite thing.......And i agree with Marcus, i think the universe is made up of a bunch of Big peices of Matter, not some small micromollecular material..
Itsonly gonna be enough for us to handle if we can step up and callit ours..Ω
Ryan_wazhere
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#24
Jan20-12, 12:24 PM
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Do any of you believe in a place outside of the Fabrics of space?
Light,Matter,more or less space,Another universe,another'Galaxy' past the darkness of the Vaccum,so tospeak?
Obviously its to say we would truly be able to take or universe and stick in under a microscope,but come on, give me some Real ideas, i want to explore This,blindly
Today right now, some of you guys gotta think,What is your part in all this
Because its not even what the answers are that matters,it just that we know they could very well exist.We haven't just been obsessing for Eons..Only a few century's,enough for this Species to coincide on what we reallly believe in??
Call me the physics Hippie;)
Drakkith
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#25
Jan20-12, 07:22 PM
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Quote Quote by Ryan_wazhere View Post
Once you hit or run through the surface of Outer space, a thing thats never been touched before, doesnt itconsistantly change what it has been doing so far?It sure would explain the speedy satellite thing.......And i agree with Marcus, i think the universe is made up of a bunch of Big peices of Matter, not some small micromollecular material..
Itsonly gonna be enough for us to handle if we can step up and callit ours..Ω
I'm sorry, I can't understand what you are saying or asking here. It doesn't seem to follow any of the normal terminology of physics.

Quote Quote by Ryan_wazhere View Post
Do any of you believe in a place outside of the Fabrics of space?
Light,Matter,more or less space,Another universe,another'Galaxy' past the darkness of the Vaccum,so tospeak?
What is the "Darkness of the Vacuum"?

Obviously its to say we would truly be able to take or universe and stick in under a microscope,but come on, give me some Real ideas, i want to explore This,blindly
Today right now, some of you guys gotta think,What is your part in all this
Because its not even what the answers are that matters,it just that we know they could very well exist.We haven't just been obsessing for Eons..Only a few century's,enough for this Species to coincide on what we reallly believe in??
Call me the physics Hippie;)
What? I can't understand anything about what you're trying to get across.
phinds
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#26
Jan20-12, 07:25 PM
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Drakith +1, this seems to be just strings of words with no meaning in physics.
Chronos
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#27
Jan21-12, 04:27 AM
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It's just another way of asking if there is anything 'outside' our universe. Logic and semantical issues aside, efforts to determine if the universe is finite or infinite are an active area of interest in cosmology.
rustynail
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#28
Jan22-12, 09:59 AM
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Quote Quote by petm1 View Post
I know that gravity is something that warps space, which means it must warp the fabric of space
I don't think I would use ''...something that warps space...'' here. As I understand it, and maybe I am wrong, gravity doesn't warp spacetime. Mass does, and those warps themselves are what we call gravity.
Naty1
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#29
Jan22-12, 10:53 AM
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Of course there is no specific answer widely agreed upon answer regarding a 'fabric'. Why would one suppose that the 'fabric of the universe' is limited to space and time.


I like Marcus' post #5 and would add that all of the universe we observe, and likely lots more, somehow originated maybe from 'nothing', at a big bang....unless you subscribe to a cyclic universe model. In any case, it doesn't appear that the forces nor energy, for example, should be excluded from consideration of a such a 'fabric'.

Seems as likely as not to me that whatever is in the vacuum may well form the unified basis for all the apparantly distinct phenomena we can't quite figure out yet....like the energy of the vacuum that drives cosmological expansion.
nai1ed
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#30
Feb10-13, 06:50 PM
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IMO Time doesn't have a beginning. I mean, how can you start time? It must have always existed, and truthfully what is time anyway? I see time as simply the motion of the universe. So if Time is infinite, then that would assume that space is also infinite. Imagine something expanding and growing for eternity, what would that look like? How many dimensions would it cross? It's like that old computer game called "Life", but imagine it continues to grow, and eventually takes on new forms and those forms again grow into something else. The patterns would continue to infinite complexity.
ideal_fluid
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#31
Feb10-13, 06:58 PM
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Quote Quote by petm1 View Post
I just wanted to know what people think of the question "What is the fabric of the universe?" I only see two choices either time or space. I know that gravity is something that warps space, which means it must warp the fabric of space, or our second choice time, and I would think that any theory of gravity must at the very least contain a quantum theory of time, because imho gravity is a function of time not space. What do you think?
The Milky Way's halo is what is referred to as the curvature of spacetime.
Drakkith
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Feb10-13, 07:26 PM
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Quote Quote by nai1ed View Post
IMO Time doesn't have a beginning. I mean, how can you start time? It must have always existed, and truthfully what is time anyway? I see time as simply the motion of the universe. So if Time is infinite, then that would assume that space is also infinite. Imagine something expanding and growing for eternity, what would that look like? How many dimensions would it cross? It's like that old computer game called "Life", but imagine it continues to grow, and eventually takes on new forms and those forms again grow into something else. The patterns would continue to infinite complexity.
Saying time can't have a beginning makes no more or less sense than saying it can.

Quote Quote by ideal_fluid View Post
The Milky Way's halo is what is referred to as the curvature of spacetime.
Not true. See the following article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_way#Halo
ideal_fluid
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#33
Feb10-13, 07:32 PM
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Quote Quote by Drakkith View Post
Not true. See the following article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_way#Halo
I'm not referring to the particles of matter which exist in the halo. I'm referring to the halo itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_way#Halo

"the Milky Way Galaxy is embedded with a large amount of hot gas in the halo"

The particles of matter which the hot gas consists of exist "in the halo".

The halo is curved spacetime.
Drakkith
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#34
Feb10-13, 07:56 PM
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Quote Quote by ideal_fluid View Post
The halo is curved spacetime.
I don't see how you are reaching this conclusion. Space-time curvature exists everywhere, as that is what gravity is. The halo is not made up of curved space-time. It is made up of matter in the form of stars and gas, and probably a large amount of dark matter as well.
ideal_fluid
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#35
Feb11-13, 12:47 AM
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Quote Quote by Drakkith View Post
I don't see how you are reaching this conclusion. Space-time curvature exists everywhere, as that is what gravity is. The halo is not made up of curved space-time. It is made up of matter in the form of stars and gas, and probably a large amount of dark matter as well.
Space itself has a fluidic nature. Matter is moving through space. What is mistaken to be non-baryonic dark matter anchored to matter is the state of the space connected to and neighboring massive objects.

'Hubble Finds Ghostly Ring of Dark Matter'
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/hu...g_feature.html

"Astronomers using NASA's Hubble Space Telescope got a first-hand view of how dark matter behaves during a titanic collision between two galaxy clusters. The wreck created a ripple of dark mater, which is somewhat similar to a ripple formed in a pond when a rock hits the water."

The 'pond' is the fluidic nature of space itself. The ripple is a wave in space. The ripple is a gravitational wave.

'Galactic Pile-Up May Point to Mysterious New Dark Force in the Universe'
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...ll-dark-force/

"The reason this is strange is that dark matter is thought to barely interact with itself. The dark matter should just coast through itself and move at the same speed as the hardly interacting galaxies. Instead, it looks like the dark matter is crashing into something — perhaps itself – and slowing down faster than the galaxies are. But this would require the dark matter to be able to interact with itself in a completely new an unexpected way, a “dark force” that affects only dark matter."

It's not a new force. It's the fluidic nature of space itself each of the galaxy clusters are interacting with analogous to the bow waves of two boats which pass by each other.

'Offset between dark matter and ordinary matter: evidence from a sample of 38 lensing clusters of galaxies'
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/...004.1475v1.pdf

"Our data strongly support the idea that the gravitational potential in clusters is mainly due to a non-baryonic fluid, and any exotic field in gravitational theory must resemble that of CDM fields very closely."

The offset is due to the galaxy clusters moving through the fluidic nature of space itself. The analogy is a submarine moving through the water. You are under water. Two miles away from you are many lights. Moving between you and the lights one mile away is a submarine. The submarine displaces the water. The state of displacement of the water causes the center of the lensing of the light propagating through the water to be offset from the center of the submarine itself. The offset between the center of the lensing of the light propagating through the water displaced by the submarine and the center of the submarine itself is going to remain the same as the submarine moves through the water. The submarine continually displaces different regions of the water. The state of the water connected to and neighboring the submarine remains the same as the submarine moves through the water even though it is not the same water the submarine continually displaces. This is what is occurring physically in nature as the galaxy clusters move through space.

'Surprise! IBEX Finds No Bow ‘Shock’ Outside our Solar System'
http://www.universetoday.com/95094/s...-solar-system/

'“While bow shocks certainly exist ahead of many other stars, we’re finding that our Sun’s interaction doesn’t reach the critical threshold to form a shock,” said Dr. David McComas, principal investigator of the IBEX mission, “so a wave is a more accurate depiction of what’s happening ahead of our heliosphere — much like the wave made by the bow of a boat as it glides through the water.”'

The wave ahead of our heliosphere is state of the space connected to and neighboring the solar system.

Curved spacetime is the state of the space connected to and neighboring massive objects. This is what the Milky Way's halo is.
Drakkith
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#36
Feb11-13, 05:27 AM
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Quote Quote by ideal_fluid View Post
Space itself has a fluidic nature. Matter is moving through space. What is mistaken to be non-baryonic dark matter anchored to matter is the state of the space connected to and neighboring massive objects.
Sorry, unless you can provide a solid reference that space is fluidic then we cannot discuss it. And no, the article you linked is not saying that.


Curved spacetime is the state of the space connected to and neighboring massive objects. This is what the Milky Way's halo is.
This is not correct. I have already linked to you what the halo is. By your definition the Milky Way's arms are curved spacetime, as is everything since curved spacetime exists everywhere. They may be in curved spacetime, but it itself does not make up objects or regions. (Other than possibly a black hole)


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