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Does a free falling charge radiate ?

 
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Feb20-13, 05:19 PM   #52
 
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Does a free falling charge radiate ?


Quote by PeterDonis View Post
As far as an analytical proof goes, yes, I believe you are right. But when we actually look at how objects of finite mass and size, like planets and stars and binary pulsars, move, we find that they appear to move on geodesics to the level of approximation we can measure, even though we can't analytically derive that result.

It's possible that the neutron stars in the binary pulsar are not moving on *exact* geodesics; of course we can't tell for sure because we can't make precise direct measurements of the system. But it does seem like they move on curves that are close enough to geodesics that we can't tell the difference with our current measurements, even though the two neutron stars are certainly not test objects. (At least, that's my understanding of the current models.)
I think there is more to it: if there is GW, you have decaying orbits. There is a way to package this as pseudo-geodesic motion for the extreme mass ration case.

However, for a symmetrical two body problem, even with no GW (let alone with), I don't see how to even ask the question of moving on geodesics; no one on the thread I linked thought there was any hope of doing this, esp. Sam Gralla for whom this is a specialty of his.
Feb20-13, 05:23 PM   #53
 
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Quote by PAllen View Post
I have always read the opposite - that geodesic motion is exactly true in GR only in the limit of test particles of zero mass and size. There is a slight generalization for the case of inspiral with extreme mass ratio; however none is known for similar mass co-orbit.

For the general topic, a paper that points to much of the history of results, along with yet more rigorous derivation of geodesic motion for test particles (only):

http://arxiv.org/abs/1002.5045 [see esp. section II, where the mass as well as size are required to approach zero
to derive exact geodesic motion] Also: http://arxiv.org/abs/0907.0414

For the slight generalization only (and not exactly) true for extreme mass ratio, see the discussion of the The Detweiler–Whiting Axiom in section 24.1 of:

http://relativity.livingreviews.org/.../fulltext.html

[edit: See also this thread: http://physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=498039]
I thought Gralla and Wald http://arxiv.org/abs/0806.3293 derive the MiSaTaQuWa equations, which are described by the Poisson review as geodesic to second order, so even for a point test particle with mass approaching zero (I guess it can't be zero, otherwise it'll move on a null geodesic?), is the geodesic equation "exact"?
Feb20-13, 05:25 PM   #54
 
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Quote by PAllen View Post
for a symmetrical two body problem, even with no GW (let alone with), I don't see how to even ask the question of moving on geodesics; no one on the thread I linked thought there was any hope of doing this, esp. Sam Gralla for whom this is a specialty of his.
Hm, I'll have to read through that thread in more detail. I would have thought it was simple conceptually: you have a numerical solution that describes a metric and two worldlines. Then you just check whether the worldlines are geodesics of the metric. This may not be simple computationally, but that's what the computations would amount to.
Feb20-13, 05:29 PM   #55
 
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Quote by atyy View Post
I thought Gralla and Wald http://arxiv.org/abs/0806.3293 derive the MiSaTaQuWa equations, which are described by the Poisson review as geodesic to second order, so even for a point test particle with mass approaching zero (I guess it can't be zero, otherwise it'll move on a null geodesic?), is the geodesic equation "exact"?
Gralla and Wald show there is a precise way in which mass and size can be taken to a zero limit such that the motion becomes exactly a timelike geodesic. The MiSaTaQuWa equations are the first order correction, which include the possibility for a small body radiating GW, thus affecting its trajectory.
Feb20-13, 05:32 PM   #56
 
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Quote by PeterDonis View Post
Hm, I'll have to read through that thread in more detail. I would have thought it was simple conceptually: you have a numerical solution that describes a metric and two worldlines. Then you just check whether the worldlines are geodesics of the metric. This may not be simple computationally, but that's what the computations would amount to.
The metric already encodes the motion of the two bodies. A geodesic of this metric would describe the motion of a test body free falling near the two massive bodies.

Maybe if you could point to some reference on this? I remain very interested whether there is some way to 'rescue' EP and some form of geodesic motion for similar mass two body problem - but gave up on it when last studying this issue.
Feb20-13, 05:33 PM   #57
 
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Quote by PeterDonis View Post
I'll have to read through that thread in more detail.
I see that Sam Gralla made this comment:

Quote by Sam Gralla View Post
The basic difficulty when you ask about geodesic motion of a body is "geodesic motion in what metric"? For the reasons you identify, it can't be the exact metric. So, approximation is always involved when you talk about geodesic motion (or, in my opinion, the assignment of a "center of mass" worldline to a body in any circumstances).

So you won't make much progress with the exact two-body problem, but there are some limits that you can consider. If one body is much smaller than the other, then the ehlers-geroch theorem as well as all the self-force stuff in Poisson's review will apply. If the bodies are widely separated, then you can use post-Newtonian techniques. Other than that, I think you're stuck with exact solutions (and no notion of CM worldline). Luckily numerical relativity has let us explore these solutions lately, so the two-body problem is pretty well under control.
I think that the binary pulsar case would be an example of the bolded phrase above; the neutron stars in binary pulsars are very far apart compared to their individual sizes. So in that case one might be able to derive post-Newtonian analytic expressions for the metric and its geodesics, if I'm reading him right.

However, he also mentions numerical solutions at the end, which makes me wonder: do numerical solutions not give enough information to even apply the test I described?
Feb20-13, 05:43 PM   #58
 
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Quote by PAllen View Post
Gralla and Wald show there is a precise way in which mass and size can be taken to a zero limit such that the motion becomes exactly a timelike geodesic. The MiSaTaQuWa equations are the first order correction, which include the possibility for a small body radiating GW, thus affecting its trajectory.
They seem to need M≠0 to get the exact geodesic for λ=0. (eq 49 in http://arxiv.org/abs/0806.3293 )
Feb20-13, 05:45 PM   #59
 
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Quote by PeterDonis View Post
I
However, he also mentions numerical solutions at the end, which makes me wonder: do numerical solutions not give enough information to even apply the test I described?
The question is, what is the test? A geodesic of the numerical metric would represent a test body motion in the spacetime of the two massive bodies, not the motion of of the massive bodies. This is where it all breaks down - the absence of any concept of background metric to define geodesics, or reference for perturbative analysis.
Feb20-13, 05:54 PM   #60
 
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Quote by atyy View Post
They seem to need M≠0 to get the exact geodesic for λ=0. (eq 49 in http://arxiv.org/abs/0806.3293 )
That section is describing zero and first order approximation to geodesic. Then, the error terms vanish as M->zero, without reaching it. For small M, the path is almost independent of M; the convergence of these paths as error terms go to zero (an infinitesimal mass particle), the path becomes exact geodesic.
Feb20-13, 06:02 PM   #61
 
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Quote by PAllen View Post
That section is describing zero and first order approximation to geodesic. Then, the error terms vanish as M->zero, without reaching it. For small M, the path is almost independent of M; the convergence of these paths as error terms go to zero (an infinitesimal mass particle), the path becomes exact geodesic.
But aren't the errors parameterized by λ, not M?

Intuitively, I'd expect that for non-zero mass, but the taking the test body approximation (body is not a source), then we get an exact timelike geodesic.

Then if we allow backreaction (body is a source), then we get an approximate timelike geodesic.
Feb20-13, 06:12 PM   #62
 
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Quote by PAllen View Post
The question is, what is the test? A geodesic of the numerical metric would represent a test body motion in the spacetime of the two massive bodies, not the motion of of the massive bodies.
I would expect it to represent both, at least at the level of approximation I think is being used for the binary pulsar modeling. AFAIK they are not modeling the pulsars' internal structure; they are just treating them as spherically symmetric objects each with a given mass and radius, where the radius is much smaller than the distance between them. The motion of each body is represented by the motion of the geometric center of each sphere; that's the motion that I believe works out to a geodesic of the overall metric.
Feb20-13, 06:26 PM   #63
 
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Quote by PeterDonis View Post
I would expect it to represent both, at least at the level of approximation I think is being used for the binary pulsar modeling. AFAIK they are not modeling the pulsars' internal structure; they are just treating them as spherically symmetric objects each with a given mass and radius, where the radius is much smaller than the distance between them. The motion of each body is represented by the motion of the geometric center of each sphere; that's the motion that I believe works out to a geodesic of the overall metric.
I'd like to see some reference for that. I could find no such thing when I last researched this. I was specifically looking for a way to treat it like that (each body moving on a geodesic fo the total spacetime), but could find nothing.
Feb20-13, 06:28 PM   #64
 
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Quote by atyy View Post
But aren't the errors parameterized by λ, not M?

Intuitively, I'd expect that for non-zero mass, but the taking the test body approximation (body is not a source), then we get an exact timelike geodesic.

Then if we allow backreaction (body is a source), then we get an approximate timelike geodesic.
A body not a source is counter-factual unless body has infinitesimal mass. Thus, a no source approximation is a limit of mass approaching zero.
Feb20-13, 06:38 PM   #65
 
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Quote by PAllen View Post
A body not a source is counter-factual unless body has infinitesimal mass. Thus, a no source approximation is a limit of mass approaching zero.
I guess he has λ→0, but M≠0. So you are saying mass goes to zero because λ→0, whereas I am saying mass is not zero, because M≠0. I do think λ→0 is kind of a mass→0, so I see your point, but I still don't understand then why M≠0.
Feb20-13, 06:44 PM   #66
 
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Quote by atyy View Post
I guess he has λ→0, but M≠0. So you are saying mass goes to zero because λ→0, whereas I am saying mass is not zero, because M≠0. I do think λ→0 is kind of a mass→0, so I see your point, but I still don't understand then why M≠0.
I think the treatment in section II of:

http://arxiv.org/abs/1002.5045

Which is based on Gralla and Wald, is a bit simpler and easier to understand. They make explicit that mass must decrease to zero as λ decreases to zero.
Feb20-13, 07:03 PM   #67
 
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Quote by PAllen View Post
I think the treatment in section II of:

http://arxiv.org/abs/1002.5045

Which is based on Gralla and Wald, is a bit simpler and easier to understand. They make explicit that mass must decrease to zero as λ decreases to zero.
Looks like there are 2 masses. He says λ→0 is mass going to zero, but at the end M≠0, which he says is the ADM mass.
Feb20-13, 08:06 PM   #68
 
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Quote by PAllen View Post
I think the treatment in section II of:

http://arxiv.org/abs/1002.5045

Which is based on Gralla and Wald, is a bit simpler and easier to understand. They make explicit that mass must decrease to zero as λ decreases to zero.
For λ→0, it's more like a size going to zero. He says in words mass goes to zero, otherwise it's a black hole. But I don't see a problem with the point particle being a black hole, so is there a need to say λ→0 is size and mass going to zero?

It seems conceptually ok to have the "word description" of λ→0 as size going to zero, we allow the point particle to be a black hole, and we end up with non-zero mass M≠0.
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