Should we use relativistic corrections for particles?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around whether relativistic corrections should be applied when calculating the final velocity of particles, specifically an electron accelerated from an electron gun at 2000V. Participants explore both classical and relativistic approaches to the problem, examining the implications of each method on the calculated velocity.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose using classical mechanics to calculate the final velocity, suggesting that the change in kinetic energy equals the change in potential energy, leading to a velocity estimate of v=0.06256c.
  • Others argue for a relativistic treatment, stating that conservation of energy must include both potential energy and total relativistic energy, which results in a different final velocity calculation of v=0.088216c.
  • A participant expresses uncertainty about the higher velocity obtained with the relativistic correction, indicating a need to verify the calculations.
  • Another participant discusses the implications of using proper mass in the context of relativistic energy and potential energy, introducing the concept of the Lagrangian formulation and Jacobi's integral as a means to analyze the problem further.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that relativistic corrections are applicable in this scenario, but there is no consensus on the implications of these corrections, as some express uncertainty about the results obtained and the validity of the calculations.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes various assumptions about energy conservation and the definitions of potential energy, which may affect the calculations. There are also references to external resources for further exploration of the topic.

pattiecake
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Does anyone know if we should use relativistic corrections for particles? Say an electron accelerating out of an electron gun at 2000V. How would you calculate the final velocity?
 
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Does anyone know if we should use relativistic corrections for particles? Say an electron accelerating out of an electron gun at 2000V. How would you calculate the final velocity?

Classically the change in kinetic energy [tex]m_ev^2[/tex] will equal the change in potential energy [tex]q_e V[/tex]. This yields [tex]v=\sqrt{\frac{q_e V}{m_e}[/tex]. With V=2000V, v=0,06256c. If you're only interested in a rough estimate you're done, but a refinement can be made treating the problem relativistically.

Relativistically conservation of energy involves the potential energy [tex]q_e V[/tex] and total relativistic energy: [tex]\frac{m_e c^2}{\sqrt{1-v^2/c^2}}[/tex]. Letting the sum of these energies be the same before and after the acceleration of the electron yields:

[tex]q_e V+m_e c^2=0+\frac{m_e c^2}{\sqrt{1-v^2/c^2}}[/tex]
[tex]\frac{q_eV}{m_e c^2}=1-\frac{1}{\sqrt{1-v^2/c^}}[/tex]

Which you can solve for [tex]v[/tex]. Often it is easier to use the relationship between relativistic momentum [tex]p=\frac{mv}{\sqrt{1-v^2/c^2}}[/tex] and energy:

[tex]E^2=c^2p^2 + m^2c^4[/tex]

With [tex]E=q_e V+m_e c^2[/tex] this makes:

[tex]\sqrt{\frac{(q_e V+m_e c^2)^2}{c^2} -(m_e)^2 c^2} = p = \frac{m_e v}{\sqrt{1-v^2/c^2}}[/tex]

Filling in numbers you get a final velocity of v=0,088216c
 
Last edited:
neat! Thanks! :smile:
 
da willem,
did you get a HIGHER velocity with the relativistic correction?
 
ehm, yes. This can't be right... I'll check it later...
 
Last edited:
pattiecake said:
Does anyone know if we should use relativistic corrections for particles?

As da_willem said, yes. In the present case conservation of energy is given by

Kinetic energy + potential energy = K + V = constant

When this equation is derived it is assumed that the proper mass (aka "rest mass") of the particle is constant. Let me be the proper mass of the electron (which obviously doesn't change). This gives, upon substitution of [tex]K = (\gamma - 1)m_ec^2[/tex]

[tex]K + V = (\gamma - 1)m_ec^2 + V = constant[/tex]

where V is the potential energy (I use "V" to mean something different than da_willem).

This can be written as

[tex]\gamma_{1} m_ec^2 - m_ec^2 + V(\mathbf{r}_1) = \gamma_{2} m_ec^2 - m_ec^2 + V(\mathbf{r}_2)[/tex]

Canceling the common factor gives

[tex]\gamma_{1} m_ec^2 + V(\mathbf{r}_1) = \gamma_{2} m_ec^2 + V(\mathbf{r}_2) = constant[/tex]

The potential energy V is related to the Coulomb potential [tex]\Phi[/tex] as

[tex]V = q_e\Phi[/tex]

Thus

[tex]\gamma_{1} m_ec^2 + q_e\Phi(\mathbf{r}_1) = \gamma_{2} m_ec^2 + q_e\Phi(\mathbf{r}_2)[/tex]

Another way to simplify is to define the quantity E = K + E0. Then

[tex]E = K + E_0 = (\gamma - 1)m_ec^2 + m_ec^2 = \gamma m_ec^2 = mc^2[/tex]

where [tex]m = \gamma m_ec^2[/tex] is the (relativistic) mass of the electron. This gives

[tex]E + V = mc^2 + V = mc^2 + q\Phi = \gamma m_ec^2 + q_e\Phi = constant[/tex]

as given above. The Lagrangian formulation may also be used to obtain a constant of motion known as Jacobi's integral since its an "integral of motion", aka a constant of motion. For the derivation see

http://www.geocities.com/physics_world/sr/relativistic_energy.htm

What value you get for Jacobi's integral depends on an arbitrary constant that you add to the Lagrangian.

See also -- http://www.geocities.com/physics_world/sr/work_energy.htm
 
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