How is electron formed? Why does it travel?


by Skhandelwal
Tags: electron, formed, travel
Skhandelwal
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#1
Sep14-07, 06:07 PM
P: 406
I understand that electron is made up of leptons which are made up of energy. But what I don't understand is that how can leptons be just made up of energy, I mean its not like a balloon. Another thing is that Wikipedia claims that Leptons and Quarks are the only 2 fundamental particles...but then what is neutrino made up of? What about antineutrino? I understand that this universe is made up of energy but then why is it moving?(why are the electrons spinning and rotating?) Don't tell me b/c the entropy is increasing b/c then I'll ask what caused the big bang. If like Hawkins, you say it is a cycle, then are you telling me time never began?
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lightarrow
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#2
Sep14-07, 08:17 PM
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Quote Quote by Skhandelwal View Post
I understand that electron is made up of leptons which are made up of energy. But what I don't understand is that how can leptons be just made up of energy, I mean its not like a balloon. Another thing is that Wikipedia claims that Leptons and Quarks are the only 2 fundamental particles...but then what is neutrino made up of? What about antineutrino? I understand that this universe is made up of energy but then why is it moving?(why are the electrons spinning and rotating?) Don't tell me b/c the entropy is increasing b/c then I'll ask what caused the big bang. If like Hawkins, you say it is a cycle, then are you telling me time never began?
You are making a mess.
1) An electron is not "made up of leptons"; it's a lepton itself.
2) Neutrino IS a lepton (and so antineutrino too).
3) Leptons and quarks are not the only fundamental particles, unless you substitute the word "particles" with the word "fermions".
4) Electrons doesn't spin.
However there are many people here who knows these things better than me.
Skhandelwal
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#3
Sep14-07, 11:02 PM
P: 406
If they don't spin then why do they talk about half integer and integer spin? Besides, how are electrons created? Why do they rotate around the protons? Are the fermions and Bosons the only fundamental particles then(being leptons, quarks, gluons, photons, and w and z bosons.)?

Mike2
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#4
Sep14-07, 11:15 PM
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How is electron formed? Why does it travel?


Quote Quote by Skhandelwal View Post
I understand that electron is made up of leptons which are made up of energy. But what I don't understand is that how can leptons be just made up of energy, I mean its not like a balloon. Another thing is that Wikipedia claims that Leptons and Quarks are the only 2 fundamental particles...but then what is neutrino made up of? What about antineutrino? I understand that this universe is made up of energy but then why is it moving?(why are the electrons spinning and rotating?) Don't tell me b/c the entropy is increasing b/c then I'll ask what caused the big bang. If like Hawkins, you say it is a cycle, then are you telling me time never began?
Are you looking for answers in terms of the symmetry properties, like U(1), SU(2), SU(3), etc? Maybe someone more equiped could give us a brief summary of how particles are supposed to be the result of symmetry properties.
Hurkyl
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#5
Sep14-07, 11:28 PM
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Quote Quote by Skhandelwal View Post
If they don't spin then why do they talk about half integer and integer spin?
I believe the entymology of the term is that you have to spin an electron 720 degrees before it returns to its original position: you get half of a full rotation in a 360 degree rotation.

Why do they rotate around the protons?
They don't. They don't revolve around protons either. An electron in an atom simply sits there, occupying its entire orbital.
DaveC426913
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#6
Sep14-07, 11:38 PM
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Quote Quote by Hurkyl View Post
An electron in an atom simply sits there, occupying its entire orbital.
I have never heard of this. I will defer to what I assume is your better knowledge on the subject, but my understandnig has been that, while electrons do not "orbit" the proton, they do not simply "occupy" the orbital either.

It was my understanding that they do actually move, and that the orbital merely describes a probability of where they will likely be found when sought out.
Skhandelwal
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#7
Sep14-07, 11:38 PM
P: 406
If thats the case then why don't they stick to the protons since they are attracted to it? Besides, thats what my chemistry teacher taught me. Also, how is it created? and how does it die?
DaveC426913
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#8
Sep15-07, 12:18 AM
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Quote Quote by Skhandelwal View Post
Also, how is it created? and how does it die?
What? The electrons? They're neither created nor destroyed. They're fundamental particles.
Skhandelwal
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#9
Sep15-07, 12:23 AM
P: 406
What about others? Protons, neutron, gluons, nuetrinos, etc. Btw, when you said destroyed, you meant naturally right? B/c they can easily be destroyed if they meet their anti.
iamquantized
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#10
Sep15-07, 01:22 AM
P: 28
Quote Quote by Skhandelwal View Post
If thats the case then why don't they stick to the protons since they are attracted to it?
proton's coulomb potential confined the electron cloud. But the electron cloud density in the nuclues center is zero.
iamquantized
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#11
Sep15-07, 01:24 AM
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I think the picture of electron cloud spinning around the nuclues should be physical
jtbell
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#12
Sep15-07, 01:37 AM
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Quote Quote by iamquantized
But the electron cloud density in the nuclues center is zero.
No, in the ground state hydrogen atom, the electron's probability density (per unit volume) is actually maximum at the origin (the nucleus)!

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...tum/hydwf.html

You may be thinking of the "radial probability distribution" (probability density per unit radius), which does go to zero at the origin. But this is a geometrical artifact. The radial probability distribution gives you the probability that the electron is located somewhere in a thin spherical shell of radius r and (small) thickness dr. The volume of that spherical shell decreases to zero as r decreases to zero, so the radial probability distribution does also.

Quote Quote by Skhandelwal
why don't they stick to the protons since they are attracted to it?
The electron doesn't "stick" to the proton because if it did, they would combine to form a neutron, emitting a neutrino in the process. But a neutron has a larger mass than a proton plus an electron, so this can't occur spontaneously; something would have to supply enough energy to create the increased mass.

In some heavier atoms, an electron can "stick" to the nucleus, converting a proton to a neutron and emitting a neutrino, provided that the resulting nucleus has a smaller mass than the original one plus the electron. This process is called electron capture. It's one mode of radioactive decay.
ganstaman
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#13
Sep15-07, 01:49 AM
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Quote Quote by Skhandelwal View Post
Don't tell me b/c the entropy is increasing b/c then I'll ask what caused the big bang. If like Hawkins, you say it is a cycle, then are you telling me time never began?
You ask these questions like the answer, "That's reasonable, but we simply don't know" is unacceptable. What caused the big bang? Whatever you want to pretend caused it. No on can say for sure right now.

Did time have a start at some point? Maybe, maybe not. Is this really a problem? Not so much -- it's weird, but not really unreasonable.
Skhandelwal
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#14
Sep15-07, 02:20 AM
P: 406
I am wondering about the more accepted theory. Ofcourse nothing is proven, but right now, scientific method is the most accepted way.

Btw, you guys are getting way too advance here, I am lost. Now, in a more elementary manner, why don't the electrons stick w/ protons?
CompuChip
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#15
Sep15-07, 03:12 AM
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I'm not an expert on this subject (yet), but let me try to clear things up a bit.

Quote Quote by Skhandelwal View Post
I understand that electron is made up of leptons
No, an electron is a lepton. Lepton is a name for a whole family of particles (muons, tau particles, neutrino's, etc)

Quote Quote by Skhandelwal View Post
[...]leptons [...] are made up of energy
Just as anything in our universe.

Quote Quote by Skhandelwal View Post
But what I don't understand is that how can leptons be just made up of energy, I mean its not like a balloon.
There is nothing to understand here, it's just something fundamental. Probably, when you say energy, you have in mind the stuff that moves objects around and heats your house. In fact, energy is a fundamental quantity, which - as far as I know - cannot be defined. We just divide energy that we see up in different forms (kinetic energy, chemical energy, mass, temperature, etc) though all of these are really the same thing.

Quote Quote by Skhandelwal View Post
I understand that this universe is made up of energy but then why is it moving?
I don't see the connection between those statements. Why would the universe being made up of energy exclude it from moving? Do you mean: why is part of the energy that makes up the universe in a form that we call kinetic energy?

Quote Quote by Skhandelwal View Post
(why are the electrons spinning and rotating?)
Electrons are kept near atomic nuclei because of nuclear forces (mainly, Coulomb interaction). It's common to picture an electron as revolving around the nucleus in an orbit, just as a planet revolves around the sun. But in reality, we cannot pin-point the exact location on a given moment in time. We can just (by quantum mechanics) calculate the probability that we will find it in that-and-that area. Likewise, the name spin is confusing -- it refers to a property of (among others) electrons which has certain similarities to the classical spin of for example a ball or a top (in fact, it is similar to the orbital rotation, but it's an intrinsic property, like classical spin - hence the name I think). But the name is also a bit misleading, as the object does not really spin around an axis (in fact, we can look at an electron as a wave, rather than a solid "ball").

So, in both cases, nothing really "spins", it's just an attempt to link some strange, quantum-mechanical properties to familiar concepts, which gives us some grasp on the ideas, but one cannot extend the analogy too far.

Quote Quote by Skhandelwal View Post
why don't the electrons stick w/ protons?
You mean, if a proton is positive and an electron is negative, why don't they attract and collide? I think there is no answer without involving quantum mechanics again (sorry about all the QM, but on this scale, that's just the theory you need to accurately describe nature), but perhaps this link will give you some reading.
Skhandelwal
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#16
Sep15-07, 04:10 AM
P: 406
"Do you mean: why is part of the energy that makes up the universe in a form that we call kinetic energy?"

Yes! and thanks for the other answers you and other folks.

One more thing, I understand that all protons and Neutrons are collected together by Strong Nuclear Force and you told me that Electron are attracted to Protons due to weak nucleus force(so charge is basically weak nucleus force). Then how is one atom attracted to other?(gravity? What is the source of it?) How is one molecule attracted to another?(what I mean is that whenever 2 compounds meet, why do they start chemical reactions instead of repulsing each other?(I took AP Chem but trying to keep up my grade was a greater priority for me then understanding it)
lightarrow
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#17
Sep15-07, 06:18 AM
P: 1,504
Quote Quote by DaveC426913 View Post
What? The electrons? They're neither created nor destroyed.
Excepting in those few rare cases of pair productions and annihilations.
lightarrow
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#18
Sep15-07, 06:30 AM
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Quote Quote by CompuChip View Post
Electrons are kept near atomic nuclei because of nuclear forces (mainly, weak interaction).
Please?


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