Couldn't the end of spacetime cause spacetime?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of whether the end of spacetime could paradoxically cause spacetime itself, exploring implications of time, existence, and cosmological models. It includes speculative reasoning about the nature of the universe, the possibility of cyclical cosmological events, and the philosophical implications of existence arising from non-existence.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that the end of spacetime could lead to its own creation, proposing a paradox where the effect becomes the cause.
  • Another participant asks for clarification on how the existence of spacetime could cause its own existence, indicating confusion about the initial claim.
  • Some participants discuss the concept of a closed universe undergoing cycles of 'big bangs' and 'big crunches', suggesting this might relate to the original question.
  • One participant asserts that spacetime cannot cease to exist without all matter vanishing, emphasizing the principle that something cannot come from nothing.
  • Another participant references a magazine article discussing how matter and gravity could cancel each other out, suggesting that something could indeed come from nothing.
  • There is a discussion about the philosophical implications of existence, with one participant noting that human perception may not reflect the true nature of the universe.
  • Another participant mentions that time is a perception, which can vary depending on one's position in the universe.
  • A later reply highlights the difficulty of discussing an 'end' to spacetime, as it implies a 'beginning', and suggests that this topic is open to interpretation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a variety of viewpoints, with no consensus reached on the original question. Disagreements arise regarding the implications of cyclical cosmological models and the philosophical interpretations of existence.

Contextual Notes

Some statements rely on assumptions about the nature of time and existence, and the discussion includes references to theoretical models that may not be universally accepted. The implications of concepts like 'big bangs' and 'big crunches' are also debated without resolution.

J_desu101
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Couldn't the end of spacetime cause spacetime? As in some sort of looping paradox keeping existence in existence.

I just wanted to ask this question. It's probably wrong but I wanted to know what people think.
 
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can you explain your reasoning please. how could the end of spacetime cause spacetime...and are you talking about one universe or parallel universes?
 
One universe. It's one of those paradoxical situations when the effect becomes the cause. What I'm suggesting is that because logically something can't come from nothing, some cataclysm in the present, past or future; be it the end of the universe or something else actually caused the big bang and therefore the universe. In other words the universe (assuming there is only one. This theory could be adapted for multiple but I choose not to at the moment) has always been here yet has a beginning. The beginning being caused paradoxically by it's end (or some cataclysm somewhere in time). If a piece of string was time. The beginning of the string represents the beginning of time. Before this point you have no time, afterwards you do. But the piece of the string after this first point has always existed, but the existence of the string caused it's own existence.

I realize this is probably nonesense. I can't really find the words to express it properly as of yet and so what above is probably contradictory.
 
i am still confused how can the existence of the string cause its own existence?
 
There is a possibility that a closed universe will go through an endless series of 'big bangs' and corresponding 'big crunches', in which spacetime does indeed expand to a maximum then contracts, dragging all matter inwards. Is this what you have in mind? Look into the "Robertson-Walker metric" with a closed universe and see if that's what you're thinking of. If so, current evidence suggests our universe is not closed; indeed the expansion is accelerating.
 
Space Time cannot cease to exist because with that all matter must vanish. Energy created or destroyed and hence something cannot go into nothing.
 
J_desu101 said:
The beginning being caused paradoxically by it's end .

Why are you using the word 'paradoxically'?

aguy2
 
J_desu101 said:
... logically something can't come from nothing
...

SOME THING CAME FROM NOTHING !

ULTIMATE FREE LUNCH ! !

INFLATION !

ALAN GUTH !
 
J_desu101 said:
What I'm suggesting is that because logically something can't come from nothing...

Actually, I was reading an article in Discover magazine, in which they discussed that since all matter was equal to all gravity in the universe that they canceled each other, so in fact, something could come from nothing.

You could also get into the topic of anti-matter, where in random things, mainly neutrons, are created from nothing. Theoretically, albeit how rare it may seem, a person, dog, or plant could be created from nothing.
 
  • #10
zefram_c said:
There is a possibility that a closed universe will go through an endless series of 'big bangs' and corresponding 'big crunches', in which spacetime does indeed expand to a maximum then contracts, dragging all matter inwards. Is this what you have in mind? Look into the "Robertson-Walker metric" with a closed universe and see if that's what you're thinking of. If so, current evidence suggests our universe is not closed; indeed the expansion is accelerating.

I don't think this is what he is trying to say.
I think it is more along the lines of, since there is a string, there is a beginning of a string. So there would have to be an end so that the string could exist. Kinda of like a line seg. is the only usuable form of a line.
 
  • #11
Cosmo16 said:
I think it is more along the lines of, since there is a string, there is a beginning of a string. So there would have to be an end so that the string could exist. Kinda of like a line seg. is the only usuable form of a line.

But you have to remember, that's only the way we, humans, think about it. That doesn't necessarily make it the way the universe itself works.
 
  • #12
time is a perception, so depending on where you are depends on how you view it.
 
  • #13
Hi J_desu101, welcome to PF! That's a difficult question. Anytime you talk about an 'end' to spacetime, you imply it had a 'beginning'. It is easier to talk about the beginning, since it appears to be a more recent event - and one we can nearly observe. It is a fun topic though... and no one can prove you wrong.
 

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