Is the Law of Conservation of Energy Violated on a Macroscopic Scale?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of the Law of Conservation of Energy, particularly whether it can be violated on a macroscopic scale, with references to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and the Big Bang theory. Participants explore theoretical and conceptual aspects of energy conservation in both micro and macro contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that if the Law of Conservation of Energy can be violated at a minor level due to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, it raises questions about its validity on a macroscopic scale.
  • Others argue that the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle only affects the micro level and does not influence the first law of thermodynamics at the macro level.
  • One participant questions whether the laws of thermodynamics could eliminate the possibility of the Big Bang, suggesting that the Big Bang occurred before these laws were established.
  • Another participant asserts that energy conservation is maintained, indicating that any violations due to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle occur over such short time frames that they are unobservable.
  • A later reply emphasizes that while energy conservation may appear violated at microscopic levels, total energy and momentum are always conserved in a broader context.
  • Some participants propose viewing the laws of physics as emergent phenomena, suggesting that they developed from a unified quantum state during the early moments of the universe.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle for macroscopic energy conservation and the relationship between thermodynamic laws and the Big Bang. There is no consensus on these issues, with multiple competing perspectives presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the limitations of applying quantum principles to macroscopic phenomena and the unresolved nature of how the laws of physics emerged in relation to the Big Bang.

sid_galt
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If the Law of Conservation of Energy can be violated on a minor level via the Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, what prevents it from being violated on a macroscopic scale?
 
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sid_galt said:
If the Law of Conservation of Energy can be violated on a minor level via the Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, what prevents it from being violated on a macroscopic scale?
The Heisenberg uncertainty principle only makes a difference on the micro level, so it won't affect the 1st law of thermo on the macro level.
 
..

Then what about the Big bang?

I know its just a hypothesis, but wouldn't the ;aws of thermodynamics eleminate the chance of the big bang?
 
No, everything is conserved nicely.

Re: Heisenberg uncertainty principle, this indicates that the conservation of energy can be broken but only for a time so short that we are unable to observe it. Therefore we know that this must happen otherwise many reactions in particle physics (and the virtual photon theory of EM) would not be possible.

Chris.
 
Bladibla said:
Then what about the Big bang?

I know its just a hypothesis, but wouldn't the ;aws of thermodynamics eleminate the chance of the big bang?
Essentially, the big bang happened before the laws of the universe went into place.
 
It makes more sense to view the laws of physics as an emergent phenomenon, just like the big bang itself - as russ noted. The four fundamental forces, and all the laws of nature are believed to have emerged from a single unified quantum state. Gravity was the first, breaking free at the very first tick of time - 10E-43 seconds after the BB. Next came the strong nuclear force followed by the electroweak forces. The laws of physics, as presently known, were not operative until then.
 
sid_galt said:
If the Law of Conservation of Energy can be violated on a minor level via the Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, what prevents it from being violated on a macroscopic scale?

Also beware that this violation of energy-conservation can only occur for a very short time period...Nevertheless, indeed this violation only occurs on the microscopic level and has nothing to do with the macroscopic properties of matter. This treatement is followed and used to construct thermodynamics

regards
marlon
 
marlon said:
Also beware that this violation of energy-conservation can only occur for a very short time period...Nevertheless, indeed this violation only occurs on the microscopic level and has nothing to do with the macroscopic properties of matter. This treatement is followed and used to construct thermodynamics

regards
marlon

Just to underline what Marlon answer: we must not confuse the laws of conservation of the observables with the local outcomes of these observables. Total Energy and momentum are always conserved.

Applying Heisenberg inequalities to energy just show how this total energy may be "distributed in time" and not that energy is not conserved.

Seratend.
 

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