Is dark energy needed in a perturbed universe.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the necessity of dark energy in a perturbed universe, particularly in light of a paper by Blaschke & Dabrowski. Participants explore the implications of relaxing the assumption of homogeneity in cosmological models, examining how this affects the understanding of dark energy and the universe's structure.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants highlight that the paper does not propose modifications to General Relativity (GR) but instead challenges the assumption of homogeneity in the Friedman-Walker equation, which is often used for mathematical convenience.
  • Others argue that the paper does not introduce new physical processes but applies existing theories under new assumptions.
  • It is noted that the dark energy component in current cosmological models is sensitive to infrared observations, which may relate to modifications in gravity theories like MOND.
  • One participant questions whether dropping the homogeneity requirement would lead to greater anisotropies in the WMAP data, given the confirmed fluctuations in galaxy distribution.
  • Another participant asserts that while the universe is not perfectly homogeneous, the assumption of homogeneity is more than just a mathematical convenience, suggesting a deeper consensus on its validity.
  • Concerns are raised about the large-scale structure of the universe, with references to "threads" of density and "oceans" of emptiness, suggesting these features indicate significant inhomogeneity.
  • One participant cites P.J.E. Peebles' work, arguing that the observed fractal structure of galaxy distribution cannot be extended to very large scales, where homogeneity is observed.
  • Another point made is that the inhomogeneities observed in the post-Big Bang universe align with predictions from an initial state that was nearly homogeneous, as allowed by quantum theory.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the homogeneity assumption in cosmology and its implications for dark energy. There is no consensus on whether dark energy is necessary in a perturbed universe, and multiple competing perspectives remain present.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the flexibility of the ideas presented in the paper, which may lead to challenges in making definitive predictions. The discussion also highlights the dependence on definitions of homogeneity and the sensitivity of cosmological models to observational data.

wolram
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http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0501152
Is dark energy needed in a perturbed universe.
I came across this letter and thought it may be of interest.
 
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Is dark energy needed in a perturbed universe?
Is dark energy needed? See this paper by
Blaschke & Dabrowski.

Garth
 
Last edited:
A very interesting paper Wolram. The key points:

(1) This does not propose any modification of GR. It simply proposed retaining GR and discarding an assumption behind the Friedman-Walker equation (homogenity) which almost all theorists using it recognize is there to make the math easier, not because anyone really thinks that the universe is homogeneous (indeed, the existence of large scale structure, an inhomogeneous feature of the universe, is a well established feature of modern cosmology).

(2) Likewise, this does not propose any really new physical process. It just applies only theories with new assumptions.

(3) The authors appear legitimate and the course of the paper is typical for a physics paper.

(4) It points out that the dark energy proportion of current theory flowing out of observations and Friedman-Walker are far more sensitive to the infrared than to the blue end of the scale. This is the end of the scale where MOND and other proposed gravity modification take place as well.

The biggest downside is that the ideas in this article are hard to prove affirmatively because they are sufficiently flexible that they make few predictions.
 
The fluctuations seen in the WMAP data have now been confirmed to exist in later galaxy distribution. Surely if the requirement for homogeneity is dropped one would expect much greater anisotropies in WMAP?

Garth
 
ohwilleke, actually most people do think the universe is very homogenous, sure everyone recognizes it's not totally homogenous, but the assumption of homogenity goes far beyond simple mathematical convience.
 
jcsd said:
ohwilleke, actually most people do think the universe is very homogenous, sure everyone recognizes it's not totally homogenous, but the assumption of homogenity goes far beyond simple mathematical convience.

What about the large scale structure then? Stellar organization seems to have big "threads" of density and big "oceans" of emptiness. Moreover, it seems to be almost fractal (i.e. the gap-wall configuration seems to happen at multiple scale levels), wouldn't it be reasonable to suppose that such a structure produces significant imhomogeneity.

And, whatever people have believed about the homogenity of the universe, I think it is definitely true that most people did not think the Friedman equations were as sensitive to this fact as it would appear that they are.
 
ohwilleke said:
Stellar organization seems to have big "threads" of density and big "oceans" of emptiness. Moreover, it seems to be almost fractal (i.e. the gap-wall configuration seems to happen at multiple scale levels), wouldn't it be reasonable to suppose that such a structure produces significant imhomogeneity.
P.J.E. Peebles treats this issue with detail in "Principles of Physical Cosmology", pages 203 to 224. The observed fractal structure of the galaxy distribution under (few) hundred Mpc cannot be consistently extended to very large scales, where a (nearly) homogeneous distribution is observed.
 
I think the more important point is the inhomogenities observed in the post Big Bang universe are extremely consistent with what is predicted to emerge from an initial state that was as perfectly homogenous as permitted by quantum theory.
 

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