Why are liquids generally less dense than solids?

  • Thread starter Thread starter wasteofo2
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Liquids Solids
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the density differences between solids and liquids, exploring the underlying reasons for why liquids are generally less dense than solids. Participants examine atomic structure, energy states, and the limitations of common models used to illustrate these concepts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Jacob expresses confusion regarding the transition from solid to liquid states, questioning why excess energy does not break the bonds holding solid particles in place.
  • One participant uses an analogy involving taped and untaped tennis balls to illustrate the differences in density between solids and liquids when in motion, but questions how this applies when they are stationary.
  • Another participant critiques the use of simplistic models to explain atomic structures, suggesting that these models can misrepresent the nature of atomic bonding and spacing.
  • It is proposed that atomic bonding does not create space for atoms to fall into, but rather brings them close together until their valence shells touch, with strong repulsion occurring if they are pushed closer.
  • A participant notes that gravity has a negligible effect on atomic dynamics compared to electrostatic forces, emphasizing the dominance of these forces in determining atomic behavior.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the effectiveness of common models used to explain atomic structures and bonding. There is no consensus on the best way to conceptualize the transition from solid to liquid states or the implications for density.

Contextual Notes

Some limitations in the discussion include the reliance on simplified models that may not accurately represent atomic interactions, as well as unresolved questions about the nature of energy transitions between states of matter.

wasteofo2
Messages
477
Reaction score
2
I took Honors Chemistry this year with the assumption I might actually get some good questions answered, but alas, no such luck. When we went over different stages of matter, the teacher used those little diagrams I'm sure you've all seen to describe how solids, liquids and gasses differ. The diagrams where solids were little balls connected in a crystal-lattice structure by little rods, liquids were little balls just piled atop one another, and gasses were little balls floating all over the place.

Now, I understand that liquids have more energy than solids, and thus there's more atomic motion, but still, based on these diagrams, I don't understand why that excess energy you need to go from solid to liquid doesn't break the strong bonds that hold solid particles in place, and allow the particles to essentially collapse in on that vacant space that was kept vacant by bonds keeping all the solid particles strictly in place.

Can someone try to explain to me why all substances aren't like water, in that the solid state of the molecule expands from the liquid state?

Thanks a lot,
Jacob
 
Last edited:
Chemistry news on Phys.org
wasteofo2 said:
I don't understand why that excess energy you need to go from solid to liquid doesn't break the strong bonds that hold solid particles in place, and allow the particles to essentially collapse in on that vacant space that was kept vacant by bonds keeping all the solid particles strictly in place.
solid - tape some tennis balls together, put them on your racket, and fling them into the air
liquid - put normal tennis balls on your racket and fling them into the air.

Which balls stayed closer together, the taped or the nontaped? If you can think of a reason for why that happened, you can understand solids and liquids. :wink:
 
ShawnD said:
solid - tape some tennis balls together, put them on your racket, and fling them into the air
liquid - put normal tennis balls on your racket and fling them into the air.

Which balls stayed closer together, the taped or the nontaped? If you can think of a reason for why that happened, you can understand solids and liquids. :wink:
That explains why solids are more dense than liquids when flung into the air, but what about when they're just sitting around?
 
The only time they'll be "sitting around" is at absolute zero... but at that point everything is a solid.
 
wasteofo2 said:
The diagrams where solids were little balls connected in a crystal-lattice structure by little rods, liquids were little balls just piled atop one another, and gasses were little balls floating all over the place.
The problem is from using models like these. Some models can do more damage than good. This one seems to have done some damage at least.

Now, I understand that liquids have more energy than solids, and thus there's more atomic motion, but still, based on these diagrams, I don't understand why that excess energy you need to go from solid to liquid doesn't break the strong bonds that hold solid particles in place, and allow the particles to essentially collapse in on that vacant space that was kept vacant by bonds keeping all the solid particles strictly in place.

The "bonds" do not keep the atoms away from each other. A better model would have the balls (representing the atoms) stuck to each other. If bonding results from sharing or exchanging valence electrons, would this not require that the valence shells actually overlap ?

A slightly better explanation of bonding would be the following:
What the bonding does is it sucks nearby atoms to each other till their valence shells are touching - as long as other requirements of bonding (such as the number of valence electrons making aoctets and so on) are satisfied. Bonding does not hold atoms apart. There is no space created for the atoms to fall into.

Atoms can not come any closer to each other than they get to be in a solid at low temperatures. If you do try to push a pair of atoms closer to each other, they will start to feel a strong repulsion.

Also keep in mind that gravity has a negligible effect on the dynamics of individual atoms. The force due to gravity on an atom/molecule is tiny compared to the electrostatic forces due to neighbouring atoms/molecules.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 32 ·
2
Replies
32
Views
5K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
12K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
7K
  • · Replies 26 ·
Replies
26
Views
21K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K