Antique Pocket Sundial

[Hornbein]

A pocket sundial! from 1637. Such is not that unusual in the era before pocket watches. What is unusual is the map with labeled zones. What's that for? Correction for variations in the magnetic field? There's a built in compass so that's my guess. It shows they took this quite seriously. This must have cost a LOT of money.

 

[Ibix]

The map zones are the counties of England as they used to be (edit: and Wales, with the smaller ones in the south just treated as Glamorgan)(edit 2: actually that link shows modern regions of Wales - the counties in existence at the time of the sundial were these ones), labelled with their initial letters.

 

[gmax137]

these ones

Don't let @sevensages see you writing that

 

[DaveC426913]

I thought these were only seen on The Flintstones.

Seriously. I mean, they have to be fixed. It never occurred to me you could make a half-way in-between device that's portable, and can be calibrated with a compass.

 

[WWGD]

The map zones are the counties of England as they used to be (edit: and Wales, with the smaller ones in the south just treated as Glamorgan)(edit 2: actually that link shows modern regions of Wales - the counties in existence at the time of the sundial were these ones), labelled with their initial letters.

Have all counties now become, changed into, shires? Maybe I'm displaying here my ignorance of the UK.

 

[Ibix]

Have all counties now become, changed into, shires? Maybe I'm displaying here my ignorance of the UK.

Historically I think there was some distinction between a shire and a county and we had both. But these days, county is the political/geograhic entity and shire is just part of the name of the counties that are named after their county town.

 

[WWGD]

Historically I think there was some distinction between a shire and a county and we had both. But these days, county is the political/geograhic entity and shire is just part of the name of the counties that are named after their county town.

Thank you. If not too long, can you explain or give a ref on the status of Wales, England, Scotland, NI? Are they countries united under a king ( Charles, currently)? Maybe @pinball1970 can add too? Just out of curiosity.

 

[Ibix]

Thank you. If not too long, can you explain or give a ref on the status of Wales, England, Scotland, NI? Are they countries united under a king ( Charles, currently)? Maybe @pinball1970 can add too? Just out of curiosity.

Complicated.

England, Wales and Scotland are separate countries that share a monarch. Wales was actually conquered by England, but Scotland was merged in after Elizabeth I died and her cousin, James VI of Scotland, became James I of England and Scotland. Collectively, England, Scotland and Wales are Great Britain.

Ireland was conquered by England, then about a century ago successfully rebelled and regained its independence, except for the six northern counties that remain in British possession. Britain certainly regards Northern Ireland as a country like Scotland and Wales, but I suspect the Republic of Ireland sees it as a part of its territory. The Belfast Accords which settled "The Troubles" (a terrorist campaign, heroic independence struggle, or long-running civil war depending on who you talk to) provide for a one-time referendum for it to join the Republic of Ireland, which will probably happen in 20-30 years because the pro-republic side is mostly Catholic and typically have more children than the mostly Protestant pro-British side. Until then, though, Great Britain and Northern Ireland are collectively the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (or UK for short).

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own parliaments with some powers (relatively recent creations - younger than me), but subordinate to the parliament in Westminster. Arguably, they were carefully designed to be ineffective. England does not have its own parliament, but demographics being what they are the Westminster parliament is heavily dominated by English MPs. Scotland also has a supreme court (and in fact a partially distinct legal system), again subordinate to the English one. Wales has the same laws as England, and I think Northern Ireland does too although I should probably double check that.

It's basically a huge pile of historical accidents and at-the-time expedient compromises glued together by tradition. IMO, we should probably sit down and design something that reflects where we are now and takes lessons from other countries' systems, but I don't think there's any appetite for it.

 

[WWGD]

Complicated.

England, Wales and Scotland are separate countries that share a monarch. Wales was actually conquered by England, but Scotland was merged in after Elizabeth I died and her cousin, James VI of Scotland, became James I of England and Scotland. Collectively, England, Scotland and Wales are Great Britain.

Ireland was conquered by England, then about a century ago successfully rebelled and regained its independence, except for the six northern counties that remain in British possession. Britain certainly regards Northern Ireland as a country like Scotland and Wales, but I suspect the Republic of Ireland sees it as a part of its territory. The Belfast Accords which settled "The Troubles" (a terrorist campaign, heroic independence struggle, or long-running civil war depending on who you talk to) provide for a one-time referendum for it to join the Republic of Ireland, which will probably happen in 20-30 years because the pro-republic side is mostly Catholic and typically have more children than the mostly Protestant pro-British side. Until then, though, Great Britain and Northern Ireland are collectively the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (or UK for short).

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own parliaments with some powers (relatively recent creations - younger than me), but subordinate to the parliament in Westminster. Arguably, they were carefully designed to be ineffective. England does not have its own parliament, but demographics being what they are the Westminster parliament is heavily dominated by English MPs. Scotland also has a supreme court (and in fact a partially distinct legal system), again subordinate to the English one. Wales has the same laws as England, and I think Northern Ireland does too although I should probably double check that.

It's basically a huge pile of historical accidents and at-the-time expedient compromises glued together by tradition. IMO, we should probably sit down and design something that reflects where we are now and takes lessons from other countries' systems, but I don't think there's any appetite for it.

Excellent, thank you so much.

 

[Herman Trivilino]

It was my understanding that Great Britain consists of the nations of England, Scotland, and Wales. And the United Kingdom (UK) also includes Northern Ireland.

I remember a time when we Americans were scolded for referring to England as England.

 

[WWGD]

It was my understanding that Great Britain consists of the nations of England, Scotland, and Wales. And the United Kingdom (UK) also includes Northern Ireland.

I remember a time when we Americans were scolded for referring to England as England.

I remember the name "Unit Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". But now we're approaching Holy Trinity ball park.

 

[DaveC426913]

It was my understanding that Great Britain consists of the nations of England, Scotland, and Wales. And the United Kingdom (UK) also includes Northern Ireland.

I remember a time when we Americans were scolded for referring to England as England.

Googling Venn diagram of UK will get you a plethora of these. Choose as you like.

 

[Ibix]

I remember a time when we Americans were scolded for referring to England as England.

There are many ways to offend people by saying England when you should (or merely could) say GB or UK, or vice versa, or when you said the correct thing but my personal politics mean I think you should have said something else.

A classic (that I'm not sure still happens, but maybe it does) is national news referring to successful English sportspeople as English, but to successful Scottish sportspeople as British. Both are correct, of course, but taken together there's an anglo-centric perspective that irritates many Scots. If you aren't aware of that context you can say something wholly accurate and still get told off for other people's systematic biases.

And now I am both way of topic and verging on politics, so I'll shut up.

 

[tech99]

You can buy a portable compass/sundial here: https://nauticalia.com/collections/replica-navigation-instruments/products/sundial-for-travelling
They also sell a portable astrolabe so you can find position (to some extent).

 

[WWGD]

There are a few compass apps for Android https://www.androidauthority.com/best-compass-apps-android-2-954789/