News Texas Polygamist Raid: Unjustified Persecution?

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The discussion centers on the controversial raid that resulted in the removal of 401 children from a polygamist community in Texas, sparked by a 16-year-old girl's call alleging abuse. Participants express concern over the justification for such a drastic action, questioning whether the authorities provided adequate reasoning beyond the parents' polygamous practices. There are fears of potential religious discrimination and the implications of guilt by association, especially given the historical persecution of Mormons in the U.S. While some acknowledge the need to protect children from abuse, others argue that the broad approach taken by authorities seems excessive and lacks clear evidence of systematic wrongdoing. The conversation highlights the complexities of balancing child protection with the rights of religious communities.
  • #51
Evo said:
Unless I'm missing it, they used the Texas Child Protection laws to take custody and was not part of a warrant.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8847458?source=rss
Chains of evidence are critically important in law. If one link in the chain fails all subsequent links are ruled invalid.

We can assume evidence from the original search is to be used to obtain custody orders for the children but if the warrant which allowed that original search is found to be invalid for the reasons I gave above then any evidence obtained through it cannot be presented in court and so the state will be left without a case.

Of course it is quite likely the DA and CPS know they are on thin ice but perhaps they are banking on the wheels of justice moving very slowly and if they can drag this out to the SC by the time the Morman community win their case the children will all be adults anyway :smile:.

The reason I'm somewhat uneasy about this whole affair is because some years ago in the UK there were two pediatric consultants Dr Marietta Higgs and Dr Geoffrey Wyatt who went on a mission to find abused children.

They were allowed to run amok for years during which time with the help of a compliant local Social Services dep't they had hundreds of children taken into care until finally following accusations against parents who had clout in the community there was an investigation into their methods and behaviour.

It transpired during the inquiry by other leading child abuse experts and headed by Lord Justice Butler-Sloss their approach had been more akin to the Salem witch trials than good medical practice, indeed some of their diagnostic methods and behaviour bordered on child abuse itself and the two doctors were subsequently mildly disciplined. After new reviews the vast majority of the children were returned to their parents with an apology :rolleyes:.

Some of those children had been separated for years from their siblings and their parents which must have had a terrible effect on the children's development not to mention the pressure on their parents and their relationships.

The First Victims of the Cleveland Child Abuse Scandal

Posted on: Saturday, 24 February 2007, 18:00 CST

By SUE REID

PRETTY and fashionably dressed, the two young sisters look the very embodiment of confident modern womanhood.

In fact, Lindsey and Paula's lives have been almost too shocking to comprehend.

For these are the two girls who were at the centre of the Cleveland child abuse controversy that rocked Britain exactly 20 years ago.

Raised by a loving family, they were the first victims of the 1987 scandal when hundreds of parents in the North-East of England were wrongly accused of the worst crime imaginable: molesting their own children Lindsey and Paula Wise are speaking out today for the first time. They want the world to know exactly what happened to them on the say-so of a maverick paediatrician called Marietta Higgs and other child doctors in the hope that their story will stop such a travesty ever being repeated.

The girls, now 23 and 22, were taken from their devoted parents, Barry and Linda Wise, and put in foster homes. They escaped adoption by a whisker.

They spent their youngest years in the hands of the state instead of their family. Like the 119 other children ensnared in what was Britain's first and biggest abuse scandal, they were interrogated by social workers and endured a battery of the most intimate examinations by doctors.

As a toddler Lindsey was photographed or examined for signs of sexual abuse 17 times, according to her own medical records. In fact, it may have been many more - she will never know. For, mysteriously, the official files on the Cleveland debacle, provoked by Dr Higgs's blind faith in an unproven medical technique to prove child abuse, have since been destroyed.

Now Lindsey and Paula Wise plan to take legal action against those they allege ruined their young lives. This week they asked police in Middlesbrough, where they both live with their parents in a neat terraced house, to investigate their cases.

They acted after the admission on Monday by the Government's Chief Medical Officer, Sir Liam Donaldson, that mistakes were made in Cleveland.

Sir Liam, coincidentally the medical officer in charge of the Northern Regional Health Authority covering the area in 1987, confirmed that the medical technique used by Dr Higgs and her acolytes was unreliable.

By looking at and probing a child's bottom, Dr Higgs believed she could see if there was Reflex Anal Dilatation - or RAD.

She insisted that the existence of RAD - originally devised to detect homosexual abuse - showed if a child had been interfered with. Today it is known that RAD can appear in any boy or girl quite normally and spontaneously.

After a long fight through the courts, 80 per cent of children taken in Cleveland were returned to their innocent parents. Yet the damage was done.

Many were traumatised.
http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/852413/the_first_victims_of_the_cleveland_child_abuse_scandal/index.html

So it is best to have a healthy skepticism in the face of zealots.
 
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  • #52
Evo's last couple of links there have considerably more information in them than the stuff I was seeing in the early morning and the last couple of days. Good job tracking them down, Evo.
 
  • #53
Interesting http://166.70.44.77/comments/read_comments.asp?ref=8847458&PageIndex=8" on the Salt Lake Tribune site:

Rowdy1 4/8/2008 4:04:00 PM said:
I have read numerous posts from people who are appalled at the way the investigation is being conducted. While I agree not enough information has yet been released, having a legal background, I have a little bit different perspective on what I see happening.

The 911 call gave authorities cause to enter the compound without a warrant under what the law allows as “exigent circumstances,” which is to ascertain the safety and welfare of a possible victim of a crime. During the search for the victim, if evidence of other criminal activity is found, the police have a duty to act.

For example, if a woman reports that she is being beaten, and the police arrive only to be met at the door by a man who denies the claim, the police have the right to enter the residence despite his protests, to ascertain if there are any victims of abuse. During the warrantless search for a possible victim, if evidence is uncovered relating to another crime (i.e. drugs) in plain view, the officers may seize the evidence and make the appropriate arrest. In a warrantless search however, the law does not admit evidence that for example, might be found concealed in a dresser drawer while officers were tasked with locating a person.

It’s important to understand how investigations relate to search and seizure laws. Having said that, my understanding is that the Texas authorities actually went to a judge and obtained a warrant to enter the compound and search for the girl that placed the call. This was an additional (but possibly unnecessary) protective step presumably due to the sensitive nature of entering the large, closed compound. It is also probable that authorities were able to ascertain with the caller that there was no immediate threat of danger prior to being able to obtain a warrant. Judges can and do issue emergency protective orders based on affidavits, 24/7. Still, the scope of the search at that time would have been narrow.

On the first day, during the search for the victim, 18 girls were removed into state custody and placed into foster care. The legal action that authorities took regarding these 18 was different than was taken with the other children who were removed the same day. Other children were removed and detained during the investigation to determine their welfare. Because of how this case is unfolding, it stands to reason that during the investigation to locate the 16 yr old caller, these 18 girls were probably pregnant minors (or teen mothers) who were suspected or determined to be victims of adult sexual abuse. Armed with information from the initial investigation, the judge has been issuing warrants further increasing the search radius to locate more victims and evidence, and expanding the search to include records of marriages and births. Warrants are definitely specific in nature, but a judge may expand the scope depending on what information the investigation reveals.

Removing abused or neglected children to ensure their safety and welfare happens in homes all over the country. Once an allegation of abuse or neglect has been received, the state has a duty to investigate. If the possibility exists that the allegation may be true, then the state is liable for leaving a child in their current circumstance until it is determined that the environment is safe. This holds true with siblings of victims, who have not been victimized themselves, but might be at risk. Unfortunately, due to the sheer numbers of children, this is a large task that has appalled many people.

Additionally, not all those taken from the compound are considered at risk. Allowing the adult women (presumably mothers) to voluntarily leave the compound and go with the children is very unusual. This is normally not allowed when the state removes children from homes, and speaks to the fact that authorities are at least attempting to accommodate the children’s transition with some degree of sensitivity.

The investigation is a large undertaking, but the fact that 18 girls were removed and placed into legal custody the first day, makes me think that we might see arrest warrants forthcoming at least regarding these cases. It also explains why as the investigation continues and new information is uncovered, the judge is further expanding the scope of the warrant. While it may be true that authorities have not yet located the girl who placed the original call, it’s no doubt a moot legal point now. The way this case is unfolding, it sure makes it look like when officers entered the compound the first day, they discovered evidence leading them to believe there was abuse involving those 18 girls.

Just my take on what appears to be happening in Texas. It will be interesting to see what evidence if any, does eventually come to light. I really can’t see the judge expanding the scope of the warrant if there was absolutely no evidence from the initial investigation. Such an act would have serious consequences for not only the judge, but the state of Texas.
 
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  • #54
mheslep said:
Im not clear how you logically single out Mormons there. Everyday there's a report / story of a woman who finally escapes abuse, Mormon or no.
It isn't Mormons per se (any more*), its just that this particular sect doesn't have a name we can refer to. But the fact that the leader of the sect is in jail for crimes that are an integral part of what this sect does makes me incredulous to why they hadn't broken it up already. Yes, it is allowable in the US to break up a religious group that practices illegal activities. Your beliefs are protected, but your religion is not a shield from the law.

*Clearly, there is still a lot of sympathy for these illegal activities within the Mormon Church. Today polygamy and child marriage are not officially sanctioned by the church, but they are an integral part of the history.
 
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  • #55
A note on child marriage and history: because arranged and political marriages have been common almost everywhere, child marriage is actually pretty universal in history. Certainly in Europe it wasn't uncommon for a young teenage girl to be married to a man decades older than her and I think it wasn't entirely uncommon in the U.S. until a century ago or so. Check out these modern http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age" at Wikipedia and note that many countries permit marriage at ages younger than 16, many allow it at any age in the case of pregnancy.

So this isn't a particularly Mormon practice historically, is what I'm pointing out.
 
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  • #56
CaptainQuasar said:
From what I've been reading the presence of the mothers sounds as if it's entirely voluntary and that they could return to the community if they wished.

What jaap [POST=1680559]said there[/POST] about the children being free to return to the community, right before your initial comment, is not true.

I said children AND women (read their mothers). They are not under arrest so if no illegal activity will be proven in the church I don't see why they would not be allowed to return.

Now I worked for the salvation army for one year in Amsterdam so I know a thing or two about the effect of systematic abuse. That's why I think it is correct for the authorities NOT to trivialize the 911 call especially with prior knowledge of this community and other communities like these.
 
  • #57
jaap de vries said:
I said children AND women (read their mothers). They are not under arrest so if no illegal activity will be proven in the church I don't see why they would not be allowed to return.

My impression has been that the women accompanying the children has been voluntary, yes. But I don't think the situation with the children is a matter of what the children want to do and I think that once children are in state protective custody the matter can be more complex than simply whether something illegal has occurred - that's why the phrase "best interest of the children" is used rather than CPS talking about crimes or evidence. It's great that you don't think there's any reason why they shouldn't be returned but it's interesting phrasing that despite citing your experience below you've avoided saying what you think Texas CPS will do.

I'm no expert on these matters, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the concept of an "unfit parent" has many more dimensions than simply whether the parent has committed a crime or not. The mandates governing CPS will now compel them to thoroughly consider the fitness of the parents before returning the children to their homes, independently of the events leading up to the children entering state custody.

I don't think it's the case that the families can be certain everything will necessarily go back to normal for each child who hasn't been abused (even if that can be proved unambiguously). That's obviously the ideal situation but a process has been set in motion now where each child's best interest, as judged by CPS, takes precedence over the particulars of whether commission of a crime can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt - the "day in court" for a potentially unfit parent is different from the day in court for someone accused of a crime. (but again, I'm not a lawyer or social worker or anything, please correct me if their situation is more certain than this.)

jaap de vries said:
Now I worked for the salvation army for one year in Amsterdam so I know a thing or two about the effect of systematic abuse. That's why I think it is correct for the authorities NOT to trivialize the 911 call especially with prior knowledge of this community and other communities like these.

You're using prejudicial language here. Proposing that the authorities better inform the public of the basis for their actions in this case, or suggesting that there may have been possible courses of action other than taking all the children of an entire community into custody away from their homes, is in no way a recommendation that the authorities should trivialize a 911 call. No one has called for the police or CPS to trivialize 911 calls and in fact much of what I've said has been about the sorts of questions journalists should be asking about all this.
 
  • #58
mheslep said:
You'd apply to, say, an 18 yr old (legal adult) female with and a 15.5 year old male?

I acknowledge that there is a gray area in there; I did not want to get into an infinite hair-splitting argument over a "sliding scale". And, of course, I forgave Jerry Lee Lewis.
 
  • #59
I have some secondary exposure to the local child protective system and have some knowledge of what happens.

Abused children are often ruined (there is no other appropriate word) for life. In addition, there is the phenomenum social work researchers call "shadow effect" where an act of abuse continues to diminish the quality of life of several generations after the original abuse.

I also occasionally seen mothers (rarely fathers - perhaps that tells a tale) who have had their children taken into temporary custody without sufficient reason. They are often pissed off at social services. Some hold on to that for years. Otherwise their lives return to normal.

Recognition of the obligation of the governing authorities to protect children, including forcible removal, dates from the very beginning of the Republic. If this case is one of unsubstantiated allegation, everyone will get their lives back, albeit with a big inconvenience.
 
  • #60
CaptainQuasar said:
A note on child marriage and history: because arranged and political marriages have been common almost everywhere, child marriage is actually pretty universal in history. Certainly in Europe it wasn't uncommon for a young teenage girl to be married to a man decades older than her and I think it wasn't entirely uncommon in the U.S. until a century ago or so. Check out these modern http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age" at Wikipedia and note that many countries permit marriage at ages younger than 16, many allow it at any age in the case of pregnancy.

So this isn't a particularly Mormon practice historically, is what I'm pointing out.
Has it ever been an accepted practice in the US?
 
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  • #61
russ_watters said:
Has it ever been an accepted practice in the US?
It appears so as it seems in Hawaii it is still 15 with parents' consent and pretty much universally throughout the other states 16 with parents' consent
 
  • #62
russ_watters said:
Has it ever been an accepted practice in the US?

Depends on whether the girl is pregnant or not. New Hampshire and New York allow marriage as young as 14, but you need parental consent and judicial consent (the usual reason for consent being pregnancy). West Virginia and some other states have similar laws for marriage of kids under 16, even if they don't specify an age.

That's a little different than what's going on with the FLDS folks, though.

The only reason for an exception is for the same reason so many other countries allow exceptions. They don't meddle into the affairs of the different tribal groups that inhabit their borders, escpecially if those groups have little interaction with mainstream society. That's also the only reason something like this has been tolerated for so long.

I think it's more like the situation CaptainQuasar talked about concerning Native American groups, Aboriginal groups, etc than a situation where the state laws for marriage ages are applicable.
 
  • #63
russ_watters said:
Has it ever been an accepted practice in the US?

I was hoping to come up with harder data with examples of extreme difference in age (though remember, the marriage Warren Jeffs is in jail over is a 19 year old groom and a 14 year old bride - not as extreme as what's been said about the anonymous caller, a 14 or 15 year old to a 50 year old man) but I didn't have any luck finding specific studies on it, unfortunately. There are lots of copies of marriage registers online too but that's too much data to pore through. I did find this interesting book from 1889 that gives marriage laws by state:

http://books.google.com/books?id=wQoAAAAAYAAJ

For age of consent I came across lots of 14's, a couple of 13's, and a 12 - Idaho, I think - while browsing through it. I didn't find anything forbidding marriage based upon difference in age, nor difference in age being ground for divorce (though either party being drunk at the time of the marriage is grounds for divorce! :wink:) but an interesting thing was a couple of states required parental consent only if both the bride and groom were under a certain age - presumably that means if one of them is older parental consent wasn't needed?

Some of the archaic-sounding language is amusing by modern standards - marriage is not permitted if one of the parties is "idiotic or moronic".
 
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  • #64
Human life used to end quicker. In those days it made sense for girls to marry and bear children as soon as possible. Those days are gone here in the US.
 
  • #65
TVP45 said:
I acknowledge that there is a gray area in there; I did not want to get into an infinite hair-splitting argument over a "sliding scale". And, of course, I forgave Jerry Lee Lewis.
And I wouldn't usually nit pick, but as soon as you sign on to the death penalty it seems to me you lose any slack in the argument; then you very much carry the burden of precision.
 
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  • #66
russ_watters said:
It isn't Mormons per se (any more*), its just that this particular sect doesn't have a name we can refer to.
Yes that was my take; I wasn't even clear that these clowns (Jeffs) were really Mormons in the eyes of leaders of the CLDS. Just taking up the name doesn't make it so.
But the fact that the leader of the sect is in jail for crimes that are an integral part of what this sect does makes me incredulous to why they hadn't broken it up already. Yes, it is allowable in the US to break up a religious group that practices illegal activities. Your beliefs are protected, but your religion is not a shield from the law.

*Clearly, there is still a lot of sympathy for these illegal activities within the Mormon Church.
Oh? I've havn't seen evidence of that. CDLS is very open about the repressive roles they assign to women, but I don't see where they sympathize with child marriage.
Today polygamy and child marriage are not officially sanctioned by the church, but they are an integral part of the history.
Polygamy perhaps. Child marriage, real child marriage ala Jeffs - I'm unaware of any collusion with the CDLS there. As for their history, that's guilt by association w/ the past.
 
  • #67
mheslep said:
And I wouldn't usually nit pick, but as soon as you sign on to the death penalty it seems to me you lose any slack in the argument; then you very much carry the burden of precision.

I agree with you in my head. But in my gut I absolutely loathe "short-eyes" and I suppose I'm irrational about it. If I were ever on a jury in such a case, I would ask to be excused because I don't think I could render a fair verdict.
 
  • #68
russ_watters said:
It isn't Mormons per se (any more*), its just that this particular sect doesn't have a name we can refer to. But the fact that the leader of the sect is in jail for crimes that are an integral part of what this sect does makes me incredulous to why they hadn't broken it up already. Yes, it is allowable in the US to break up a religious group that practices illegal activities. Your beliefs are protected, but your religion is not a shield from the law.

*Clearly, there is still a lot of sympathy for these illegal activities within the Mormon Church. Today polygamy and child marriage are not officially sanctioned by the church, but they are an integral part of the history.

I'm not sure how integral polygamy is with the Mormon church. They practiced it for about 60 years. Supposedly, they only intended to suspend polygamy until Utah became a state, hoping to reinstitute the practice once state laws would pre-empt federal territorial laws, but, since banning polygamy was made a prerequisite for statehood, the idea of reinstituting polygamy became moot to most of the church. So, you might be right that there's a lot of sympathy for the practice (or at least some), even if it hasn't been practiced by mainstream Mormons for over a hundred years.

The arranged marriages of children isn't an integral part of Mormon beliefs since only two or three of the polygamous sects practice arranged marriages and/or allow children to marry. If anything, this particular group has become even more extreme and more separated from mainstream Mormonism since the group split in two around the first Short Creek raid around 1950 (moderates joined one group and extremists joined the other group).
 
  • #69
Art said:
It appears so as it seems in Hawaii it is still 15 with parents' consent and pretty much universally throughout the other states 16 with parents' consent
I'm not going to split hairs over where the line should be. Use an easy example: Warren Jeff's (the founder of the cult in question) is in jail right now for arranging a marriage of a 13 year old girl.
 
  • #70
russ_watters said:
I'm not going to split hairs over where the line should be. Use an easy example: Warren Jeff's (the founder of the cult in question) is in jail right now for arranging a marriage of a 13 year old girl.
lol split hairs! By anyone's definition a 15 year old is a child! And per the info supplied by BoBG under certain circumstances some states allow kids as young as 14 to marry.

In answer to your question
Has it ever been an accepted practice in the US?
The answer is yes and still is.
 
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  • #71
mheslep said:
Yes that was my take; I wasn't even clear that these clowns (Jeffs) were really Mormons in the eyes of leaders of the CLDS. Just taking up the name doesn't make it so.
Well it kinda does - they are every bit as Mormon as Presbyterians are Christian. They are a break-away group.
As for their history, that's guilt by association w/ the past.
Again, since the group in question is a break-away group, it is clearly relevant. In fact, I could see a good argument for saying the breakaway group is more Mormon than the "official" church, since it is the official church that changed their policy and the breakaway group wanted to keep it the same.
Oh? I've havn't seen evidence of that. CDLS is very open about the repressive roles they assign to women, but I don't see where they sympathize with child marriage.

Polygamy perhaps. Child marriage, real child marriage ala Jeffs - I'm unaware of any collusion with the CDLS there.
One of the articles linked earlier talked about such sympathy. I'll go back later and figure out which one.
 
  • #72
Art said:
lol split hairs! By anyone's definition a 15 year old is a child! And per the info supplied by BoBG under certain circumstances some states allow kids as young as 14 to marry.

In answer to your question The answer is yes and still is.
The other special circumstances about permission are non sequiturs as well (things like the fact that they typically have limits on the difference in age are conveniently ignored here) and the key word is permission. In the case we're discussing here, these kids are being forced.

What this cult is doing is not standard operating procedure in the US and afaik, never has been.
 
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  • #73
Regarding sympathy for polygamy in Utah, a google finds lots of articles. Here's one from 2006: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,209474,00.html

Here's an interesting site: http://www.pro-polygamy.com/

Note: A line is often drawn between polygamy and child marriage. The pro polygamy website has this as its slogan:
Freely-consenting, adult, non-abusive, marriage-committed
POLYGAMY
is the next civil rights battle.
But the fact of the matter is, they need that part in there because polygamy has been historically connected to child marriage. IMO, it is an enabler and it seems to me that Jeffs' fundamentalist cult exists for the purpose of pedophilia*.

I'd even extend it to say that the Mormon religion itself encourages (or used to, but the text of the book remains even if they no longer follow it) older men to marry much younger women:
The revelation, in part, held that, "If any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another ... then he is justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him."
http://www.childbrides.org/history_sanantonio_polygamy_stirred_anger.html

*[edit] By the strict definition, most of the girls in question were probably "sexually mature" and thus don't fit the definition for pedophilia, but at the very least, as this website puts it:
By today's definitions, when it comes to the pathology of pedophilia, Joseph Smith would probably not be considered a true pedophile. That doesn't mean however, that he wasn't a lecherous scumbag who would stop at nothing to bed any young woman who captured his fancy.
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon253.htm
But note also the age of Joe Smith's wives and the changes in age of menarche over the past 150 years.
 
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  • #74
All I can say is, being married to one woman is difficult enough. Why would one want to double the trouble? :)
 
  • #75
russ_watters said:
The other special circumstances about permission are non sequiturs as well (things like the fact that they typically have limits on the difference in age are conveniently ignored here)
What limits are imposed on age differences in marriage in the US? Do you have a link to support this claim?
russ_watters said:
and the key word is permission. In the case we're discussing here, these kids are being forced.
Allegedly! Or do you have proof??
 
  • #76
drankin said:
All I can say is, being married to one woman is difficult enough. Why would one want to double the trouble? :)
They get 5 to 10 for having several wives. I only have one wife, and I got life.
 
  • #77
Art said:
lol split hairs! By anyone's definition a 15 year old is a child! And per the info supplied by BoBG under certain circumstances some states allow kids as young as 14 to marry.

In answer to your question The answer is yes and still is.

That's taken a little out of context.

I'm sure you can find instances where a 40-year-old man was allowed to marry a teenager. I even know one instance where a high school swim coach married one of the high school girls on his team and her parents were proud of it - at least publically.

That's not the intent of allowing exceptions to the age of consent and someone like that high school coach was at least as likely to face charges of statutory rape as to be the son-in-law of proud parents (as it was, his teaching career was effectively finished even though no criminal charges were filed against him).

The intent is to take into the account the inevitable pregnancies that result from teens having sex with other teens.

There's a big difference between allowing for exceptions to the law and making something the preferred policy.

I have a few doubts as to how this group should be handled, but I don't have any doubts that this group is just plain wacko.
 
  • #78
BobG said:
That's taken a little out of context.

I'm sure you can find instances where a 40-year-old man was allowed to marry a teenager. I even know one instance where a high school swim coach married one of the high school girls on his team and her parents were proud of it - at least publically.

That's not the intent of allowing exceptions to the age of consent and someone like that high school coach was at least as likely to face charges of statutory rape as to be the son-in-law of proud parents (as it was, his teaching career was effectively finished even though no criminal charges were filed against him).

The intent is to take into the account the inevitable pregnancies that result from teens having sex with other teens.

There's a big difference between allowing for exceptions to the law and making something the preferred policy.

I have a few doubts as to how this group should be handled, but I don't have any doubts that this group is just plain wacko.
The point is US law does allow for the marriage of children and as far as I know with no age discrepancy stipulations. In the case of Hawaii there doesn't seem to be any requirement other than the parent's consent for a 15 year old child to get married.

Personally I think even if the marriage of a 14 year old is allowed because the girl made a serious error of judgment and became pregnant allowing her to marry so young simply compounds the error.
 
  • #79
Art, how do you say that the caller was "anonymous"? I thought she called 2 different places (the cops and a local shelter), and identified herself to both places. I have no idea how many of the "inmates" of this compound even have any identification documents. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that most women lacked proper identification.

Also, I believe what forced the police to remove all the children from the location was that they found many underage girls showing signs of pregnancy.
 
  • #80
There's a lot of discussion about "age of consent." The "consent" part of that phrase refers to consent to legal marriage. These aren't legal marriages...the media are using the term "spiritual marriage" when referring to these unions between an older man and numerous young girls.

If the allegations are true, it's simply older men having sex with underaged girls. That's illegal, period.
 
  • #81
lisab said:
There's a lot of discussion about "age of consent." The "consent" part of that phrase refers to consent to legal marriage. These aren't legal marriages...the media are using the term "spiritual marriage" when referring to these unions between an older man and numerous young girls.

If the allegations are true, it's simply older men having sex with underaged girls. That's illegal, period.

They're "spiritual marriages" because the law won't recognize more than one marriage for a person. If they do have more than one 'legal' marriage, then they're charged with bigamy.

Which leads to something that would be considered at least a semi-scam: if the law won't recognize the additional marriages as legal, then the second, third wife, etc are eligible for welfare benefits as unwed mothers.
 
  • #82
Court docs say there was a bed in the temple used for underage sex. Also information that there was a cult informant inside for 4 years!
 
  • #83
BobG said:
The arranged marriages of children isn't an integral part of Mormon beliefs since only two or three of the polygamous sects practice arranged marriages and/or allow children to marry.

This is an important distinction. I'm not that bothered by it if a crowd of consenting adults want to call themselves "married" and have a family. But these sects are quite obviously motivated by some kind of freaky sex and power trips, hence the total control of children and females, and the forcing them into marriage as soon as they hit puberty. The idea obviously being to lock them into a marriage and children before they become mature enough to question the influences of the middle-aged males controlling their lives or, worse yet, form romantic attachments to boys ther own age.

The other problem is that such male-dominated polygamist societies (i.e., where each man takes multiple wives) inevitably produce an excess of males that can't find a wife, who are then ostracized from the society once they reach adolescence. The fact that these people will abandon their own male children in order to prevent them from competing with middle-aged (and older) men for the sexual attentions of young girls has me convinced that they're child abusers, rather than simply leading a misunderstood-but-basically-decent lifestyle.
 
  • #84
Authorities find bed in compound temple

When authorities finally gained entrance to the three-story building, no one was inside.

But on the top they found beds allegedly used by husbands after they married underage girls on the top floor of the temple.,snip>

The discovery of the marriage beds in the temple was revealed Wednesday as troopers completed their search of the grounds of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080410/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat_127
 
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  • #85
it all sounds like the Taliban
 
  • #86
Sect's Moms Separated From Older Children
Denver Post Wire Report
Article Last Updated: 04/15/2008 01:25:04 AM MDT

SAN ANGELO, Texas — Texas officials who took 416 children from a polygamist retreat into state custody sent many of their mothers away Monday.

Of the 139 women who left the compound with their children, only those with children age 4 or younger were allowed to continue staying with them, said Marissa Gonzales of Children's Protective Services.

"It is not the normal practice to allow parents to accompany the child when an abuse allegation is made," she said.
http://www.denverpost.com/nationworld/ci_8925775

The state wants to put ALL of the 416 children either in foster homes or up for adoption.

And Gokul if you can find a link identifying the 'girl who called in the complaint' please provide it.
 
  • #87
No, you have either misread or distorted the newspaper story (Which hardly qualifies as a primary, or even secondary, source to begin with). MANY of the children are being separated from their mothers; the state will attempt (there is a long and detailed legal process) to place SOME of the children (those who will have been found to have been abused) in foster homes or place them for adoption. You should know that the alleged abuse victims are older children and that there is little likelihood of quickly placing ANY of these. Nationwide, there are up to 100,000 (the number is fuzzy since there is a mixture of public and private agencies) older children already approved for adoption or placement and many of these will simply age out of the system without ever being placed. The demand for placement far outstrips the supply of suitable homes, so little happens quickly. Everybody wants cute infants; few people want teenagers with baggage.
 
  • #88
TVP45 said:
No, you have either misread or distorted the newspaper story (Which hardly qualifies as a primary, or even secondary, source to begin with). MANY of the children are being separated from their mothers; the state will attempt (there is a long and detailed legal process) to place SOME of the children (those who will have been found to have been abused) in foster homes or place them for adoption. You should know that the alleged abuse victims are older children and that there is little likelihood of quickly placing ANY of these. Nationwide, there are up to 100,000 (the number is fuzzy since there is a mixture of public and private agencies) older children already approved for adoption or placement and many of these will simply age out of the system without ever being placed. The demand for placement far outstrips the supply of suitable homes, so little happens quickly. Everybody wants cute infants; few people want teenagers with baggage.
Please substantiate your assertion I misread or misrepresented the article. Having attacked me you then attacked the source so how about the BBC? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7348079.stm
 
  • #89
Art said:
And Gokul if you can find a link identifying the 'girl who called in the complaint' please provide it.

I've heard that the call was to Child Protective Services from one source and to 911 in another source. Do you think a recording of the call exists? I haven't heard of any recordings in this case. It sure would clear things up if the recording were played on the news, eh?
 
  • #90
Art said:
Please substantiate your assertion I misread or misrepresented the article. Having attacked me you then attacked the source so how about the BBC? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7348079.stm

I did not attack you. I disputed your claim that ALL the children were to placed in foster homes or placed for adoption. The story, which is badly written, carries no byline, and has no independent substantiation, does not support your assertion of ALL.

I seldom listen to the BBC; I'm not sure why I would attack it.

I am quite willing to be found wrong in this matter, but I do ask that it be done with facts.
 
  • #91
TVP45 said:
I did not attack you. I disputed your claim that ALL the children were to placed in foster homes or placed for adoption. The story, which is badly written, carries no byline, and has no independent substantiation, does not support your assertion of ALL.

I seldom listen to the BBC; I'm not sure why I would attack it.

I am quite willing to be found wrong in this matter, but I do ask that it be done with facts.
You obviously misread what I wrote. I said the state WANTS to take all the children into care, hence the court case, not that it will necessarily be allowed by the court to do so.

If they didn't want to take all of the kids into care then they wouldn't have them all on the docket.
 
  • #92
If I misunderstood you, I apologize. I quite agree that the state wants to keep all the children in temporary custody.
 
  • #93
Greg Bernhardt said:
Court docs say there was a bed in the temple used for underage sex. Also information that there was a cult informant inside for 4 years!

Are court docs in the public domain? I would love to read how the court describes a bed in a temple.

Also information? From where? Same court docs?

My only other question is; do these 'cults' pay taxes?




This has been an interesting read. My thanks to all the participants.
 
  • #94
Alfi said:
Are court docs in the public domain? I would love to read how the court describes a bed in a temple.

Also information? From where? Same court docs?

My only other question is; do these 'cults' pay taxes?




This has been an interesting read. My thanks to all the participants.
I posted the link here. https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1684170&postcount=84
 
  • #95
But on the top they found beds allegedly used by husbands after they married underage girls on the top floor of the temple.

ah ... thanks Evo...

Alleged by the reporter, or by whom?

... but I was more looking forward to court papers rather than speculation by a writer for profit.
 
  • #96
Art said:
And Gokul if you can find a link identifying the 'girl who called in the complaint' please provide it.
This is a little old, but I just read it now.

I heard this on the radio more than a couple times, that the girl gave her name, to the authorities and the name of her husband. Being the alleged victim of a sexual assault, her name can not be revealed by authorities.
 
  • #98
russ_watters said:
It appears that the 911 calls may have been fraudulent: http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/18/polygamy.fri/index.html#cnnSTCText

That's probably enough to keep people out of jail for abuse, but it is probably not enough to keep that cult in business.

If the authorities acted in good faith, a fraudalent call does not invalidate the search warrant.
 
  • #99
TVP45 said:
If the authorities acted in good faith, a fraudalent call does not invalidate the search warrant.
Really? I guess I figured that since their probably cause was not really probable cause, anything they found would be 'poisoned fruit'. I'm not a lawyer, though - I just watch too much Law and Order.
 
  • #100
If you do watch Law and Order, then may recall the episode in which Lt. VanBuren's old superior, now an executive at a Wal-Mart lookalike, provided information that led to a search. The search was invalidated when it appeared he had provided false information with VanBuren's knowledge. When it was determined she did not know the information was bad, the search results were readmitted. I hate to base legal stuff on TV, but I believe that principle generally holds.
 
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