Texas Polygamist Raid: Unjustified Persecution?

[Gokul43201]

I forgot to come back here and say [post=1680386]I TOTALLY CALLED IT![/post] Wheee-hoo!

Yeah, them being unable to find the girl, then deciding to take all the kids in the town was just a little bit suspicious...

I think your argument is still flawed. The rationale for removal of the children was not based on the phone call, but based on the observation of pregnant minors. Unless I'm mistaken, the warrant granted on the basis of the call was only for the purposes of searching the ranch, not for taking custody of children. And Texas law permits taking all children from a home if there is suspicion that anyone child in the household has been abused.

 

[lisab]

Medical exams and reports by the children indicate that at least 41 children have had broken bones in the past.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24388249/

Forty-one percent had broken a bone...how does this compare to the general population? Seems high to me.

Then again, I doubt these kids have ever spent time watching TV, playing video games, or surfing the web. Maybe they've done activities that are more hazardous (we used to call it "playing").

 

[Evo]

I think your argument is still flawed. The rationale for removal of the children was not based on the phone call, but based on the observation of pregnant minors. Unless I'm mistaken, the warrant granted on the basis of the call was only for the purposes of searching the ranch, not for taking custody of children. And Texas law permits taking all children from a home if there is suspicion that anyone child in the household has been abused.

Exactly.

 

[Gokul43201]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24388249/

Forty-one percent had broken a bone...how does this compare to the general population? Seems high to me.

If it's 41 out of the 450 odd children, that's more like 9%, but they don't yet have records for all the children.

Also disturbing is that about 60% of underage teens are either pregnant or have conceived in the past. That, I'm sure, is way above the national average.

 

[Evo]

If it's 41 out of the 450 odd children, that's more like 9%, but they don't yet have records for all the children.

It also depends on what bones were broken and if the breaks seem normal for a fall or blunt force or unusual breaks. Or maybe I watch too many crime shows.

Also disturbing is that about 60% of underage teens are either pregnant or have conceived in the past. That, I'm sure, is way above the national average.

That's WAY above. And considering they all live together, there's just no way to brush that aside.

 

[lisab]

If it's 41 out of the 450 odd children, that's more like 9%, but they don't yet have records for all the children.

Also disturbing is that about 60% of underage teens are either pregnant or have conceived in the past. That, I'm sure, is way above the national average.

Aaaaah...you're right; it is 41, not 41%. That's different...doesn't seem out of normal range to me.

60% of underage girls moms or moms-to-be...yep, that's not normal!

 

[russ_watters]

Then again, I doubt these kids have ever spent time watching TV, playing video games, or surfing the web. Maybe they've done activities that are more hazardous (we used to call it "playing").

They've probably also never played organized sports, though.

 

[IMP]

The court of appeals in Austin just ruled in favor of the families. Now they just need to charge the morons who took all those kids with kidnapping...

 

[Gokul43201]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/22/flds.ruling/index.html

"Evidence that children raised in this particular environment may some day have their physical health and safety threatened is not evidence that the danger is imminent enough to warrant invoking the extreme measure of immediate removal prior to full litigation of the issue."
...
Later, flanked by some of the FLDS mothers represented in the case, Balovich explained that authorities considered YFZ ranch one household, an assertion with which the appeals court did not agree.

Therefore, proving there was abuse in one household did not mean the state could apply that behavior to the entire ranch.

 

[Art]

It is good to see common sense prevailed. If you were to randomly pick any sink estate in the UK and investigate how the kids are treated you would find far worse and more plentiful cases of abuse and I suspect the same would be true with their US equivalents but to suggest in consequence all children from lower working class homes should be taken into care would be unrealistic to put it mildly.

I wonder will Texas now be liable for a hefty damages payout??

 

[Gokul43201]

It is good to see common sense prevailed. If you were to randomly pick any sink estate in the UK and investigate how the kids are treated you would find far worse and more plentiful cases of abuse and I suspect the same would be true with their US equivalents but to suggest in consequence all children from lower working class homes should be taken into care would be unrealistic to put it mildly.

I didn't know that the authorities raided all the Mormon neighborhoods in the country and took away their children!

To my knowledge they found evidence of abuse at this one ranch and took only the children that were in that particular compound. They apparently failed to convince the judge that the entire ranch should be treated as a single household.

 

[Art]

I didn't know that the authorities raided all the Mormon neighborhoods in the country and took away their children!

To my knowledge they found evidence of abuse at this one ranch and took only the children that were in that particular compound. They apparently failed to convince the judge that the entire ranch should be treated as a single household.

Which is akin to the analogy I gave of the likely result of treating all of a sink housing estate as a single household.

 

[russ_watters]

To my knowledge they found evidence of abuse at this one ranch and took only the children that were in that particular compound. They apparently failed to convince the judge that the entire ranch should be treated as a single household.

Given the nature of the FLDS organization, I still think there is a letigimate argument to be made there, even if it doesn't fit the letter of the law. I think there is a decent chance this ruling may be overturned.

In an effort to build a parallel, consider what would happen if a gated community at a country club made its own school on the grounds (rich people need to indocrinate their kids too). At the school, the kids were abused. What could be done about it?

 

[lisab]

I look at this situation through the eyes of the local authorities -- they had little choice but to take the course they did. Wow, they were in a tough spot! I think they were very courageous.

 

[Gokul43201]

Which is akin to the analogy I gave of the likely result of treating all of a sink housing estate as a single household.

I don't know what a sink estate is but it sounded like you were saying the entire lower working class was being treated like a household, not just one sink estate.

 

[Art]

I don't know what a sink estate is but it sounded like you were saying the entire lower working class was being treated like a household, not just one sink estate.

A sink estate is a British council housing estate characterised by high levels of economic and social deprivation. Many are no-go areas for the authorities and the children are practically feral hunting in packs.