When did H2O develop during the last 13.5 b y?

[baywax]

There are quite a few models of how things developed during the first .0000000001 of a second after the big bang and so on. And I was wondering if there is a timeline for when water started to congeal out of this mass of expanding energy of the BB.

Knowing this could lead to a better understanding of how long life has been developing, as well, in the universe. Its a sort of bio-archaeological approach to establishing a timeline and probability for the length of time that life has been evolving in the universe.

What are the methods of determining the age of the development of something like water?

 

[mgb_phys]

TAnd I was wondering if there is a timeline for when water started to congeal out of this mass of expanding energy of the BB.

You mean when the first oxygen atom happened to hit the first hydrogen molecule?

Knowing this could lead to a better understanding of how long life has been developing,

I don't think it would. If you put a lot of atoms together in a high enough density cloud in space you will get lots of different bonds forming. It doesn't really mean anything.
As to when it first formed in a planet's atmosphere, probably when all the stronger reducing agents had been used up and there was a chance for oxygen and hydrogen to get together.

 

[baywax]

You mean when the first oxygen atom happened to hit the first hydrogen molecule?

Yeah, kind of like that

I don't think it would. If you put a lot of atoms together in a high enough density cloud in space you will get lots of different bonds forming. It doesn't really mean anything.
As to when it first formed in a planet's atmosphere, probably when all the stronger reducing agents had been used up and there was a chance for oxygen and hydrogen to get together.

Does water need the environment of a planet to form?

 

[mgb_phys]

Does water need the environment of a planet to form?

No, but does one in a billion water molecules in a molecular cloud of H, OH and O3 really signify anything?

 

[baywax]

No, but does one in a billion water molecules in a molecular cloud of H, OH and O3 really signify anything?

Probably not... but its a start!

Is there any way to know when it started?

 

[gtring]

As I understand it:
t=0.1 seconds - primordial nucleosynthesis of ionized H
t=300,000 years - universe cools to 3000K and allows electron capture; H atoms formed
t=100 million years to 300 million years - universe cools to 30K; a Population III star allows the triple-alpha process and (CNO process) to create the first ionized O, O atoms, and O2 molecules

Assuming that the first Pop III star formed at t=100 million years, and it took 3 million years for the first supernova ever, then H and O would have been in close proximity to each other at t=103 million years.

You are assuming water-centric life. Hasn't Copernicus taught us that we are not special? *grin* For more information on water and planets and life, I recommend Astrobiology: A Multi-Disciplinary Approach by Lunine.


Cheers,
--Jake

 

[baywax]

As I understand it:
t=0.1 seconds - primordial nucleosynthesis of ionized H
t=300,000 years - universe cools to 3000K and allows electron capture; H atoms formed
t=100 million years to 300 million years - universe cools to 30K; a Population III star allows the triple-alpha process and (CNO process) to create the first ionized O, O atoms, and O2 molecules

Assuming that the first Pop III star formed at t=100 million years, and it took 3 million years for the first supernova ever, then H and O would have been in close proximity to each other at t=103 million years.

You are assuming water-centric life. Hasn't Copernicus taught us that we are not special? *grin* For more information on water and planets and life, I recommend Astrobiology: A Multi-Disciplinary Approach by Lunine.


Cheers,
--Jake

Very nice! Thank you.

I'll have to get the book.

 

[Chronos]

We can start with the observed abundance of H2O in our own soolar system. Comets are largely composed of water, so it is clear a very large amount of it formed in the very early solar system. How that happened is not entirely clear, but there is little dispute that it did. We still have much to learn about the mechanics of stellar formation. Save for our own sun, stars are at great distances, hence quantifying elemental and molecular abundances in their general vicinity is difficult. We do know that hydrogen and oxygen are abundant in the universe, and combine without great difficulty.

 

[baywax]

We can start with the observed abundance of H2O in our own soolar system. Comets are largely composed of water, so it is clear a very large amount of it formed in the very early solar system. How that happened is not entirely clear, but there is little dispute that it did. We still have much to learn about the mechanics of stellar formation. Save for our own sun, stars are at great distances, hence quantifying elemental and molecular abundances in their general vicinity is difficult. We do know that hydrogen and oxygen are abundant in the universe, and combine without great difficulty.

So its not like a big surprise to find water out there... including on Mars? Comets fascinate me in that they are mostly made of ice. I wonder if some or all of the comets we see orbiting our solar system were formed when Mar's was impacted enough to have it lose half its crust. Perhaps more than just crustal material was ejected and perhaps its oceans were also sent reeling, only to become comets.

 

[mgb_phys]

Perhaps more than just crustal material was ejected and perhaps its oceans were also sent reeling, only to become comets.

Unlikely from orbital mechanics, getting ejecta from planets out into a kuiper belt comet orbit is tricky.
The opposite is certainly possible, that a lot of water on the early Earth arrived from comet impacts. Although the present time ocean water seems not to have been from comets - based on estimates of deuterium abundance.

 

[mheslep]

Yeah, kind of like that
Does water need the environment of a planet to form?

No, but does one in a billion water molecules ...

Liquid water does; needs the pressure of an atmosphere.

 

[Sundance]

Hello

Water is formed from H and O. These elements are formed in the solar envelopes of stars.

 

[baywax]

Liquid water does; needs the pressure of an atmosphere.

Assuming the liquid form of water needs the pressure of an atmosphere of a planet to form... can I ask when planets started forming during the timeline-model after the BB?

 

[mheslep]

Assuming the liquid form of water needs the pressure of an atmosphere of a planet to form... can I ask when planets started forming during the timeline-model after the BB?

Gas giant planets could form any time after that first star - from the gas remnants around the star - though I'm not sure a pure hydrogen planet would have been possible (?). Planets with heavier elements have to weight for some super novas followed by the process of star formation again in the remnants. Not sure how H20 is relevant to the question.

 

[baywax]

Gas giant planets could form any time after that first star - from the gas remnants around the star - though I'm not sure a pure hydrogen planet would have been possible (?). Planets with heavier elements have to weight for some super novas followed by the process of star formation again in the remnants. Not sure how H20 is relevant to the question.

The thread is titled "when did H2O first develop during the last 13.5 billion years?

Where does it say liquid water requires an atmosphere to be formed? And does the atmosphere have to be on a planet...

If indeed water requires the atmosphere of a planet to form, then I can continue formulating the amount of time water-based Life has had to develop in the universe.

Is there a timeline for when the first planets began to develop?

Thank you... I'm not at all well versed in astrophysics but "gtring" was able to lay out a good short synopsis of the development of elements etc... and I think I'm getting far more efficient results asking my question here than if I was to use goggle. Thanks again!

 

[mheslep]

I meant your premise, not the OP:

Assuming the liquid form of water needs the pressure of an atmosphere of a planet to form... can I ask when planets started forming during the timeline-model after the BB?

...Where does it say liquid water requires an atmosphere to be formed? And does the atmosphere have to be on a planet...

The boiling point of water, or any liquid, is dependent on the pressure surrounding the liquid. That is, the molecules of a liquid are constantly trying to escape the liquid. They escaping molecules form a vapor pressure above the liquid and they in turn form an equilibrium with the surrounding atmosphere for a given temperature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_point
No atmosphere, no water in liquid form. It boils away immediately.

If indeed water requires the atmosphere of a planet to form, then I can continue formulating the amount of time water-based Life has had to develop in the universe.

Is there a timeline for when the first planets began to develop?

For more details than the before's and after's I gave, I don't know. Up thread I thought there was something to start from.

 

[gtring]

Yeah. I think I'm pretty cool too, baywax.

So the question is now: When did the first atmospheric planets form? The first atmospheric planets could have formed around the first Population III stars, so that would be t=100 to 300 million years. We haven't found those Pop III stars yet, so this is theoretical speculation.

In performing research, you need to make assumptions. Once again, you may be assuming that life needs water, and that water needs to be liquid, and that the liquid water needs to be on an atmospheric planet. I like to think a little bigger than that, personally. But that's the stuff for another thread.

Cheers,
--Jake

 

[baywax]

I meant your premise, not the OP:
The boiling point of water, or any liquid, is dependent on the pressure surrounding the liquid. That is, the molecules of a liquid are constantly trying to escape the liquid. They escaping molecules form a vapor pressure above the liquid and they in turn form an equilibrium with the surrounding atmosphere for a given temperature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_point
No atmosphere, no water in liquid form. It boils away immediately.

For more details than the before's and after's I gave, I don't know. Up thread I thought there was something to start from.

My premise is that with liquid water present somewhere, for the first time, in the universe, water based life would not be far... ahead

That's very enlightening though... about H20 remaining liquid only if an atmosphere is present. Very cool. I'll have to look into the first formation of planets in one of those models of the expanding universe! Thank you mheslep.

 

[mheslep]

My premise is that with liquid water present somewhere, for the first time, in the universe, water based life would not be far... ahead

Well I believe that's the premise for the intense search for water (ice) in our solar system. I don't know how soon life might follow water, but as I understand it liquid water is an absolute necessity for life as we know it.

 

[Nabeshin]

Well I believe that's the premise for the intense search for water (ice) in our solar system. I don't know how soon life might follow water, but as I understand it liquid water is an absolute necessity for life as we know it.

Seems on the case of Earth at least that life arose extremely quickly after the conditions settled down. (on the order of tens of millions of years or something?)

 

[Orion1]

Universe's first liquid water...

When did H2O develop during the last 13.5 b y

zircons from Western Australia demonstrate that continents and water existed 4.3 billion to 4.4 billion years ago, which suggests "life could have had the opportunity to start 400 million years earlier than previously documented. Oceans, atmosphere and continents were in place by 4.3 billion years ago," - Mojzsis

Universe age:
t_u = 13.85 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}

Population I third generation age of the sun:
t_{\odot} = 4.57 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}

Water is a naturally produced gas by Population I third generation star formation.

Water exists naturally in solid and gas form.

Terra age:
t_E = 4.54 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}

Water exists naturally in solid and gas form.

Time required for water bearing third generation planet to form:
t_p = t_{\odot} - t_E = (4.57 - 4.54) \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y} = 0.03 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}

\boxed{t_p = 0.03 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}}

Oldest Zircon age:
t_z = 4.4 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}

Time required for first liquid water to form on Terra:
t_w = t_E - t_z = (4.54 - 4.4) \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y} = 0.14 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}

\boxed{t_w = 0.14 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}}

Universe's/Terra's first RNA/DNA based lifeforms age:
t_l = 3.7 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}}

Time required for Universe's/Terra's liquid water to generate RNA/DNA based lifeforms:
t_{g} = t_z - t_l = (4.4 - 3.7) \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}} = 0.7 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}}

\boxed{t_g = 0.7 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}}}

Universe/Terra's number of possible liquid water RNA/DNA based lifeform regenerations:
N_g = \frac{t_z}{t_g} = \frac{4.4}{0.7} = 6.286

\boxed{N_g = 6.286}

Time required for first liquid water to form in Universe:
t_w = t_u - t_z = (13.85 - 4.4) \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y} = 9.95 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}

\boxed{t_w = 9.95 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}}

[/Color]
Reference:
http://nai.arc.nasa.gov/news_stories/news_print.cfm?ID=76"

 

[baywax]

Universe age:
t_u = 13.85 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}

Population I third generation age of the sun:
t_{\odot} = 4.57 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}

Water is a naturally produced gas by Population I third generation star formation.

Water exists naturally in solid and gas form.

Terra age:
t_E = 4.54 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}

Water exists naturally in solid and gas form.

Time required for water bearing third generation planet to form:
t_p = t_{\odot} - t_E = (4.57 - 4.54) \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y} = 0.03 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}

\boxed{t_p = 0.03 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}}

Oldest Zircon age:
t_z = 4.4 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}

Time required for first liquid water to form on Terra:
t_w = t_E - t_z = (4.54 - 4.4) \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y} = 0.14 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}

\boxed{t_w = 0.14 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}}

Universe's/Terra's first RNA/DNA based lifeforms age:
t_l = 3.7 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}}

Time required for Universe's/Terra's liquid water to generate RNA/DNA based lifeforms:
t_{g} = t_z - t_l = (4.4 - 3.7) \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}} = 0.7 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}}

\boxed{t_g = 0.7 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}}}

Universe/Terra's number of possible liquid water RNA/DNA based lifeform regenerations:
N_g = \frac{t_z}{t_g} = \frac{4.4}{0.7} = 6.286

\boxed{N_g = 6.286}

Time required for first liquid water to form in Universe:
t_w = t_u - t_z = (13.85 - 4.4) \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y} = 9.95 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}

\boxed{t_w = 9.95 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}}

[/Color]
Reference:
http://nai.arc.nasa.gov/news_stories/news_print.cfm?ID=76"

This is an extraordinary amount of work on your part Orion1... thank you for that. My kid is astounded at the equations! He's constantly trying to get me to ask questions on PF to help him with his homework.

I doubt I could have ever concocted or googled such a detailed model describing the probability of liquid water developing in the early universe.

Your calculation basically gives water based life twice the amount of time to develop compared to the amount of time its had on earth. Given the amount of material... suns and planets... in the universe... there must be a model that would predict where and how many times it has begun over the last 9.95 billion years. And, judging from the number of variables concerning environmental changes we could possibly calculate how many times life has started and failed as well.

 

[mgb_phys]

Orion - what's the current theory on the the Earth remelting?
When I was at school the Earth remelted after around 500Myr because of heat from radioactive elements - this wiped out the original rocks and any evidence of earlier life.
Did it not melt, was the melt earlier or only partial?

 

[mheslep]

t_w = 9.95 \cdot 10^9 \text{y} ? That seems late. This means the first universe liquid water could be no earlier than first Terra water? I would think rather that first universe water is the time for the first appropriate star + time for first planet + time for liquid water to form on the planet (Terra like). So using Orion's figures:
t_{\odot} = 4.57 \cdot 10^9 \text{y}
t_p = 0.03 \cdot 10^9 \text{y}
t_w_p = 0.14 \cdot 10^9 \text{y}
we get
t_w = t_{\odot} + t_p + t_w_p = 4.74 \cdot 10^9 \text{y} after the Big Bang.

 

[D H]

Universe age:
t_u = 13.85 \cdot 10^9 \; \text{y}[/Color]

What's this Color=Blue garbage? You trying to give me a headache? Just because you can color your text doesn't mean you should.

Water is a naturally produced gas by Population I third generation star formation.

Water is of course hydrogen dioxide. Hydrogen formed in the Big Bang. Oxygen formed in Population III stars. The formation of water does not require a third generation star. Moreover, the Sun is not the first third generation star in the galaxy, let alone the universe.

 

[baywax]

t_w = 9.95 \cdot 10^9 \text{y} ? That seems late.

Isn't that 9.95 billion years ago? Earth's terra forming only started 4.5 billion years ago. As far back as we have geological evidence of what the Earth was like, there was liquid water present.

The 4.4-billion-year-old mineral sample suggests that early Earth was not a roiling ocean of magma, but instead was cool enough for water, continents, and conditions that could have supported life. The age of the sample may also undermine accepted current views on how and when the moon was formed. The research was supported in part by the National Science Foundation (NSF), and is published in this week's issue of the journal Nature.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/01/010111073459.htm

 

[baywax]

Water is of course hydrogen dioxide.

Hydrogen dioxide! That sounds deadly.. even if it is water!

Hydrogen formed in the Big Bang. Oxygen formed in Population III stars. The formation of water does not require a third generation star. Moreover, the Sun is not the first third generation star in the galaxy, let alone the universe.

What does this tell us?

 

[mgb_phys]

Hydrogen dioxide! That sounds deadly.. even if it is water!

Erm it isn't - water is Di-Hydrogen Monoxide.
And it is deadly - http://www.dhmo.org/

 

[D H]

Erm it isn't - water is Di-Hydrogen Monoxide.

Oops. I am dyslexic.

What I was trying to say is that water had the opportunity to appear somewhere in the universe much sooner that 4.4 billion years ago.

 

[baywax]

Oops. I am dyslexic.

What I was trying to say is that water had the opportunity to appear somewhere in the universe much sooner that 4.4 billion years ago.

Right on! This is what I'm getting at. This isn't to say its evidence to support ET or anything of the sort... although 4.6 billion years is certainly long enough to come up with intergalactic methods of travel. But it is evidence enough to suggest that life has had time to evolve to the point it has here on earth... elsewhere. (edit: barring environmental calamity)