Cannot stand the eternity in cyclic models

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    Cyclic Models
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of cyclic models of the universe, particularly concerning the concept of infinity and the existence of a "first" big bang. Participants explore the philosophical and scientific aspects of eternity in relation to cosmological cycles.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question how an infinite number of big bangs could precede the current universe's big bang, suggesting that this would imply an endless sequence that could never be completed.
  • Others propose that if the cycles are truly infinite, then there is no need for a first big bang, as big bangs have always occurred.
  • One participant argues that cyclic models do not explain eternity but imply it, raising concerns about the natural possibility of eternity.
  • Another participant challenges the notion of causation between cycles, suggesting that the traditional understanding of cause and effect may not apply in this context.
  • Some participants reference Hilbert's Hotel as a metaphor for understanding infinity, indicating that individual events can still occur within an infinite framework.
  • There is a suggestion that reasoning about time as having a beginning complicates the understanding of an eternal cyclic universe, where cycles exist without a first cycle.
  • One participant mentions Cantor's theory of infinite sets as potentially relevant to the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of cyclic models and the nature of infinity. There is no consensus on whether an infinite number of cycles precludes the occurrence of the current cycle or if causation applies between cycles.

Contextual Notes

Some statements reflect philosophical considerations that may not align with scientific perspectives, particularly regarding the nature of eternity and causation in cyclic models. The discussion includes various interpretations of infinity and its implications for cosmology.

xponential
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I have had this question for a long time and thought this forum might be the best place to answer..

If there is an infinite number of bangs happened before the big bang, our universe's bang should never have happened because it would require an endless number of bangs that -by definition- would never get covered all for ours to occur!
 
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Maybe someone can explain it better but here is my take on it.

If you divide infinity in half it is still infinity. If this is a cyclic event that keeps happening over and over as it always has and will continue to do so, it is infinite. Think of it as there was no first big bang, they just always have happened. You can think about a million big bangs ago and still go a million more, you can do this until you go loony making up any large number you like, and there will still be just as many previous to the last one because they have always happened.
 
Charmar said:
If you divide infinity in half it is still infinity. If this is a cyclic event that keeps happening over and over as it always has and will continue to do so, it is infinite. Think of it as there was no first big bang, they just always have happened. You can think about a million big bangs ago and still go a million more, you can do this until you go loony making up any large number you like, and there will still be just as many previous to the last one because they have always happened.

Are you implying there is no causation between a cycle and another? Are the future events already happened?

Do you know of a source that illustrates this idea? I searched for cyclic models but didn't find a clear explanation about eternity.
 
you question is not clear. If an infinite number of cosmological cycles have already occurred, that does not preclude them from continuing.

Cyclic models do not explain eternity. Eternity is a philosophical question not in the realm of science. Cyclic models don't explain a 'first' bang nor a 'last' one.

There ARE causal connections between cycles in the Turok-Steinhardt model.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model
 
Naty1 said:
If an infinite number of cosmological cycles have already occurred, that does not preclude them from continuing.

Cyclic models do not explain eternity. Eternity is a philosophical question not in the realm of science. Cyclic models don't explain a 'first' bang nor a 'last' one.

Cyclic models don't explain eternity but they imply it. I don't see how eternity is even naturally possible. If there is infinite cycles of the universe before the current one in which we live in, our current cycle should never have happened since an INFINITE number of cycles before it should have passed first.
 
If there is infinite cycles of the universe before the current one in which we live in, our current cycle should never have happened since an INFINITE number of cycles before it should have passed first.

just not so.

That's a misconception.

So if you like one,single, unique, bang in all of 'history'...why should THAT have ever happened?? nobody knows.

there is much in nature that is difficult to understand.
see my signature...don't blame the physics...nor math...
 
Look up Hilbert's Hotel ... it has an infinite number of rooms and they're all full, but you can always get in one more guest.
 
phinds said:
Look up Hilbert's Hotel ... it has an infinite number of rooms and they're all full, but you can always get in one more guest.

Do you think he has vacancy tonight? I might need a place to stay.


Anyways, I believe it is a misconception to think that there cannot be individual bangs in an infinite cyclic model. In order for there to be an infinite cyclic model, you MUST have individual bangs occurring. Otherwise there would be no cycle.
 
xponential said:
I have had this question for a long time and thought this forum might be the best place to answer..

If there is an infinite number of bangs happened before the big bang, our universe's bang should never have happened because it would require an endless number of bangs that -by definition- would never get covered all for ours to occur!
An infinite past is no more a problem than an infinite future. It only becomes a problem when you try to impose colloquial notions of cause and effect that exist nowhere in the fundamental physics.
 
  • #10
Drakkith said:
Do you think he has vacancy tonight? I might need a place to stay.

Wife kicked you out again, huh?
 
  • #11
xponential said:
Cyclic models don't explain eternity but they imply it. I don't see how eternity is even naturally possible. If there is infinite cycles of the universe before the current one in which we live in, our current cycle should never have happened since an INFINITE number of cycles before it should have passed first.
They had an infinite amount of time to happen in. You are still reasoning as if time had a beginning, after which infinitely many cycles occurred. In an eternal cyclic universe, there was no beginning to time. There are cycles before cycles before cycles, but there is no first cycle.
 
  • #12
xponential said:
Cyclic models don't explain eternity but they imply it. I don't see how eternity is even naturally possible. If there is infinite cycles of the universe before the current one in which we live in, our current cycle should never have happened since an INFINITE number of cycles before it should have passed first.

Where does a Universe-sized gorilla sleep? Wherever it wants to.
 
  • #13
Perhaps reviewing Cantor's theory of infinite sets would be instructive.
 
  • #14
phinds said:
Wife kicked you out again, huh?

Nonsense, I am not married. It was the cat this time. But wait, I don't own a cat...
 

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