Is Pursuing a PhD in Organic Photovoltaics a Smart Career Move?

[armis]

Greetings

I have a dilemma, hopefully some of you can help. And yes I did research a lot about this on google but I think a new discussion is more helpful.

Where did you get your PhD in? Was it worth it? What are the options outside academia?

I have an opportunity to get a PhD position in organic photovoltaics. The salary is great, the group also. From research point of you it's excellent. And I also have experience working in the field since I have been working for 2 years now in an another university. I am currently finishing my master's degree.
What I am wondering though are career prospects after PhD. And I am not entirely sure I want to stay in academia. I do like the field of organic electronics though.

Thanks a lot

 

[twofish-quant]

Where did you get your PhD in?

Computational astrophysics.

Was it worth it?

Hell yes.

What are the options outside academia?

This board has many of them. It's a tricky question because often you'll be working on something that didn't exist when you start your Ph.D., which is cool.

 

[armis]

Thank you twofish-quant

When you just started a PhD where you aware of your possibilities after finishing it outside academia?
Also since you did a lot of programming your experience might be easily transferred elsewhere, is that correct? I mean even outside the realm of physics.

 

[twofish-quant]

When you just started a PhD where you aware of your possibilities after finishing it outside academia?

I knew that there wasn't much of a chance that I was going to get an academic job. As far as what I ended up doing, interesting story here... In August 1991, I was one of the first people to download and compile would be known as the world wide web, and my first reaction was "this looks like it could be interesting."

By the time I got out in 1998, it was in the middle of the dot-com boom, and the bit of time that I spent teaching myself web programming before there were books on web programming turned out to be useful.

But it didn't matter, since I got the Ph.D. for family reasons. My father wasn't able to finish his Ph.d., so as the eldest son, I was sort of being groomed to get a Ph.D. before I was born. For that matter, in talking with my uncle it became obvious that I was expected to get a Ph.d. before my father was born.

Also since you did a lot of programming your experience might be easily transferred elsewhere, is that correct? I mean even outside the realm of physics.

Yes. Personally what worked for me was to just play with whatever seemed interesting to me, and not worry too much about whether there was an obvious job waiting. However, it happens that the things that I'm interested in just happened to be money-makers.

 

[armis]

Thanks, you really have a story to tell! Very interesting

 

[EngCommand]

I knew that there wasn't much of a chance that I was going to get an academic job. As far as what I ended up doing, interesting story here... In August 1991, I was one of the first people to download and compile would be known as the world wide web, and my first reaction was "this looks like it could be interesting."

By the time I got out in 1998, it was in the middle of the dot-com boom, and the bit of time that I spent teaching myself web programming before there were books on web programming turned out to be useful.

But it didn't matter, since I got the Ph.D. for family reasons. My father wasn't able to finish his Ph.d., so as the eldest son, I was sort of being groomed to get a Ph.D. before I was born. For that matter, in talking with my uncle it became obvious that I was expected to get a Ph.d. before my father was born.


Yes. Personally what worked for me was to just play with whatever seemed interesting to me, and not worry too much about whether there was an obvious job waiting. However, it happens that the things that I'm interested in just happened to be money-makers.

So what do you do for a living now? I'm guessing something in finance. A lot of my computational chemist colleagues ended up in finance.

 

[ModusPwnd]

No, not for me. I attempted a Phd but am not smart enough to do it. It ended up being a financial disaster for me. But if you are smart enough to do it it may land you a good job.

 

[armis]

Thanks ModusPwnd

In what area did you work if I may ask? Were you in a self-funded position?

 

[ParticleGrl]

I did a phd in particle physics. I finished about 18 months ago, and its too soon to tell if it will be worth it. Since I graduated, I've been working as a bartender and applying for jobs in engineering and technical fields.

If I eventually land a job where I can use some of my hard-won training, then I would say yes. If I gradually forget everything I learned while continuing to work in the service industry, then I would say no.

 

[EngCommand]

I did a phd in particle physics. I finished about 18 months ago, and its too soon to tell if it will be worth it. Since I graduated, I've been working as a bartender and applying for jobs in engineering and technical fields.

If I eventually land a job where I can use some of my hard-won training, then I would say yes. If I gradually forget everything I learned while continuing to work in the service industry, then I would say no.

Eugh, that's a hard situation to be in. I can only imagine how frustrating that must be. What technical areas are you applying for jobs in?

 

[ModusPwnd]

Thanks ModusPwnd

In what area did you work if I may ask? Were you in a self-funded position?

No, I wasn't self funded. Not at first. I worked in a solid state / condensed matter lab. But I couldn't pass the qual and had to fund myself to finish my masters, which was not a financially wise decision. Now I have undergrad and grad debt with no career. :( With how much I make in the restaurant I can't afford my student loans, so I take two community college classes to keep my loans in deferment.Of course my experience isn't typical, but its something to keep in mind. Going to university can be very bad choice for some.

 

[eri]

I did a PhD in observational/computational astrophysics (although the PhD just says 'physics', and that has been very useful). I did a shot postdoc at a NASA center, but decided I didn't want to spend the rest of my life just doing research, so I'm teaching college and just landed a tenure-track position, starting next year. I'm pretty sure that's what I want to do (teach and do research - it's a liberal arts school) so I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. The PhD in physics instead of astronomy or astrophysics let me apply to a wider range of colleges for faculty positions.

 

[TMFKAN64]

I did a Ph.D. in computer science, and promptly turned my back on academia and headed into industry.

The Ph.D. has never been anything but a benefit to me, but aside from the financial aspects, it would have been worth it on a purely personal level. I hesitate to use cliches like "mind expanding"... but that's exactly what it was.

 

[ParticleGrl]

Eugh, that's a hard situation to be in. I can only imagine how frustrating that must be. What technical areas are you applying for jobs in?

I'm applying for anything and everything in my geographical area, but numerical programming seems the most likely area to eventually take me. Unfortunately, my phd was mostly pen and paper work so I'm trying to develop more programming skills on the side. Sadly, I'm now getting the "why have you been working as a bartender for the last year?" questions in job interviews.

 

[Choppy]

I did a PhD in medical physics. I followed this with a post-doc (which I chose over an immediate residency option) and then a residency and now work as a medical physicist and have an adjunct appointment with a university. For me the PhD was definitely worth it.

The medical physics PhD included a lot of profession-specific training and I consider it both a professional degree as well as an academic one. There were a lot of options available to me in this field when I finished including purely clinical positions, academic positions, and industrial positions.

I didn't chose the industrial path, but I know several people who have. These peope have gone into:
- research and development positions
- "engineering" positions which in these larger technical companies often means high tech troubleshooting
- teaching positions (teaching customers how hardware/software works, delivering seminars at conferences)
- technical sales
- project managment

Not all of these positions "required" a PhD of course, so in that sense, you might argue that the PhD is not worth it. But my own observations, for whatever they are worth, tend to suggest that PhDs advance quickly in such settings. I don't know if this is a bottleneck effect of PhDs being smarter than the average bear, or if it has more to do with the depth of the academic training - probably a combination of both.

 

[deRham]

Since I graduated, I've been working as a bartender and applying for jobs in engineering and technical fields.

I am only curious, but what about teaching or something along those lines? I would have thought that to be a standard resort.

My interests are also in pen and paper work.

 

[deRham]

but decided I didn't want to spend the rest of my life just doing research, so I'm teaching college and just landed a tenure-track position, starting next year

Do liberal arts schools pay you to research as well? How was the hiring process different from hiring for research universities, in your experience?

 

[ParticleGrl]

I am only curious, but what about teaching or something along those lines? I would have thought that to be a standard resort.

Right now, high school aren't hiring much in the US (in fact, they've been firing). Maybe as property taxes recover, this trend will reverse.

I've looked into adjuncting, but its not really a solution to a job (pay seems to be about 2k for a 4 credit class). I've applied for some lecturer positions, but haven't had much luck. And I don't know if it makes sense to take the pay cut from bartending for a single year position without very good career prospects. Tenure track type positions at liberal arts colleges are fairly competitive in their own right- they seem to prefer postdoc and industry experience to fresh phds.

 

[EngCommand]

Right now, high school aren't hiring much in the US (in fact, they've been firing). Maybe as property taxes recover, this trend will reverse.

I've looked into adjuncting, but its not really a solution to a job (pay seems to be about 2k for a 4 credit class). I've applied for some lecturer positions, but haven't had much luck. And I don't know if it makes sense to take the pay cut from bartending for a single year position without very good career prospects. Tenure track type positions at liberal arts colleges are fairly competitive in their own right- they seem to prefer postdoc and industry experience to fresh phds.

Why don't you get a postdoc stint for a few years? Surely it beats working at a restaurant.

 

[ParticleGrl]

Why don't you get a postdoc stint for a few years? Surely it beats working at a restaurant.

A combination of reasons- the strongest one is a geographical constraint. If you aren't willing to move across the world, your postdoc options can be really limited (or non-existent). The next strongest is probably pay- I'd take home significantly less than half of what I make bartending as a postdoc. I'm at the stage in my life where I need to start paying off school loans and trying to get myself to a more sound economic footing- I'm hoping to start a family in the next few years. Three years spent bartending and expanding my programming skill set seems like it will put a lot more money in my pocket and leave me in a better place in the job market than doing a postdoc (which would just be 3 more years of pen-and-paper physics
+whatever I do on the side). I simply can't devote 3+ more years to a "student/trainee" phase if the actual career prospects are so tenuous.

 

[Lavabug]

I did a PhD in observational/computational astrophysics (although the PhD just says 'physics', and that has been very useful). I did a shot postdoc at a NASA center, but decided I didn't want to spend the rest of my life just doing research, so I'm teaching college and just landed a tenure-track position, starting next year. I'm pretty sure that's what I want to do (teach and do research - it's a liberal arts school) so I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. The PhD in physics instead of astronomy or astrophysics let me apply to a wider range of colleges for faculty positions.

Could you please expand on this a bit? Did you choose that phd program specifically because it might seem more versatile to employers? Or did you get a choice in what your PhD actually says? I find myself going down a similar route: want to do a phd in the same field.

Will you get to do your line of research at the liberal arts school or do you have to do something else?

And what does everyone have to say about the following idea: doing a phd just for the hell of it? Just as a life experience thing and later make one's living from something like teaching at private high schools? Would that be wasteful? I don't think I'd like going down the other non-academic paths like IT and finance that many astrophysicists take.

 

[EngCommand]

A combination of reasons- the strongest one is a geographical constraint. If you aren't willing to move across the world, your postdoc options can be really limited (or non-existent). The next strongest is probably pay- I'd take home significantly less than half of what I make bartending as a postdoc. I'm at the stage in my life where I need to start paying off school loans and trying to get myself to a more sound economic footing- I'm hoping to start a family in the next few years. Three years spent bartending and expanding my programming skill set seems like it will put a lot more money in my pocket and leave me in a better place in the job market than doing a postdoc (which would just be 3 more years of pen-and-paper physics
+whatever I do on the side). I simply can't devote 3+ more years to a "student/trainee" phase if the actual career prospects are so tenuous.

Jesus christ, how much do they pay postdocs in the USA? Here in the UK it's at least £30,000/year ($46278/year). There's no way I could make £30,000/year working in a bar.

 

[daveyrocket]

It definitely was not worth it for me. Graduate school mortally wounded my interest in physics, and my postdoc has completely finished it off. My skill set doesn't seem to be at all useful outside the field unless I want to be a programmer, and I don't. In fact, not wanting to be a programmer was one of the reasons I went to graduate school.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Postdocs in the US make an average of around $42,000. There is rather substantial variation in this figure. Bartenders in the US can make more than bartenders in the UK though - a lot more, depending on tips.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Jesus christ, how much do they pay postdocs in the USA? Here in the UK it's at least £30,000/year ($46278/year). There's no way I could make £30,000/year working in a bar.

Tipped restaurant workers in the US generally make between 30k and 50k a year IF they work full time (but most work part time). I deliver pizza and earn the lower end of that range.

 

[eri]

Do liberal arts schools pay you to research as well? How was the hiring process different from hiring for research universities, in your experience?

Most liberal arts colleges expect their faculty to do research, and to involve undergraduate students in research projects. So they don't overload you with classes (give you some time for research) and have professional development money to spend on equipment, travel, and publication costs.

When I applied for liberal arts colleges, I emphasized my (small amount of) teaching background (mostly TAing, and I was luck enough to get a visiting professor position right out of my postdoc). When I interviewed, I did a teaching demonstration and gave a research talk (emphasizing what projects included undergraduate researchers). For me, it's the best of both worlds - I've always loved teaching and college campuses/towns, but I didn't want to give up my research completely. I just didn't want to spend all of my time on it anymore.

 

[eri]

Could you please expand on this a bit? Did you choose that phd program specifically because it might seem more versatile to employers? Or did you get a choice in what your PhD actually says? I find myself going down a similar route: want to do a phd in the same field.

Will you get to do your line of research at the liberal arts school or do you have to do something else?

And what does everyone have to say about the following idea: doing a phd just for the hell of it? Just as a life experience thing and later make one's living from something like teaching at private high schools? Would that be wasteful? I don't think I'd like going down the other non-academic paths like IT and finance that many astrophysicists take.

I applied to astronomy, astrophysics, and physics programs, and I ended up in a physics program where the department was 'physics and astronomy'. I took all the courses any physics PhD student would take (and the physics qualifying exams) but my research area was astrophysics. There aren't a ton of jobs in academia for astronomers, and a lot of competition, so if you can also apply for jobs in physics, you'll have a better shot at getting something you like (as long as you don't mind teaching physics). For most faculty job applications, I wrote my letter as 'physicist who can teach astronomy' instead of 'astronomer who can teach physics'. Many departments (even the one I'm at now) tend to think astronomers can't teach physics, but physicists can teach astronomy.

My research is computational and observational - I don't need supercomputers, and I have a lot of collaborations that give me data, so I didn't need much in the way of start-up funding. That was another plus when applying for jobs at smaller colleges - I didn't need lab space and it wasn't going to cost them another 100k to support my research.

A PhD is a lot of work - probably not worth doing just for the hell of it unless you're independently wealthy and have a ton of free time on your hands. For those of us who needed to then get a job with it, doing the physics PhD at least leaves you more options.

 

[ParticleGrl]

Most liberal arts colleges expect their faculty to do research, and to involve undergraduate students in research projects.

So a note to people considering a phd- you can dramatically expand your options for academic positions by focusing on research that you can conceivable involve undergraduates in. Its difficult to convince a hiring a committee that you can involve undergrads in pen-and-paper theory.

 

[sandy.bridge]

Well, hopefully you are at least having some fun with your current job, ParticleGrl.

 

[deRham]

@ParticleGrl, thanks for your advice and clarifications. If only my stuff were anywhere close to non-pen-and-paper.

I would hope though that, since mentoring students in pen and paper subjects is still a profession by itself, that there's still some demand at the liberal arts schools for such a thing. It's definitely possible to give an undergraduate an interesting problem to toy with based on the student's background.

 

[armis]

Thanks everyone for the interesting stories so far! It is really helping me

I find these points particularly important:

The Ph.D. has never been anything but a benefit to me, but aside from the financial aspects, it would have been worth it on a purely personal level. I hesitate to use cliches like "mind expanding"... but that's exactly what it was.

Not all of these positions "required" a PhD of course, so in that sense, you might argue that the PhD is not worth it. But my own observations, for whatever they are worth, tend to suggest that PhDs advance quickly in such settings. I don't know if this is a bottleneck effect of PhDs being smarter than the average bear, or if it has more to do with the depth of the academic training - probably a combination of both.

 

[Lavabug]

A PhD is a lot of work - probably not worth doing just for the hell of it unless you're independently wealthy and have a ton of free time on your hands. For those of us who needed to then get a job with it, doing the physics PhD at least leaves you more options.

I should have clarified: just for the hell of it -not expecting to become a tenured faculty member- if I can get into a fully-funded phd.

I am far from financially independent and considering where I am at now, a phd seems like the ticket to get there while doing something I have always wanted to do along the way.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[EngCommand]

Postdocs in the US make an average of around $42,000. There is rather substantial variation in this figure. Bartenders in the US can make more than bartenders in the UK though - a lot more, depending on tips.

Full-tie bartenders in the UK are extremely lucky if they make more than $27,000/year outside London.

 

[dhruvgupta]

Hi,

From my point of view, doing PhD is not the quest to remain in academia only. It gives you an edge to flourish in the company since nowadays companies are looking for scientists to boost their R&D activities. So I would suggest to go for PhD If you have got one. Indeed, I am dying to get one but am not able to get success in my quest till now.

Best Wishes,
Dhruv

 

[Mr.Fermion]

I am finishing my ph.d in experimental condensed matter this fall the thesis defense is basically scheduled. So I can't say that I can directly answer your question directly but I can offer my 2 cents at least. I think that often times when people choose to get a ph.d in physics it feels like some sort of calling and many of the graduate students I meet have no idea why they are really doing it, many just tell me "I love physics and I had to continue to learn more about it".

I was definitely like them when I started, I wanted a sense of accomplishment and I only got that from doing research. There no feeling like having a very nice results that explains something that was previously unknown. Its extremely addictive and gratifying. However, the problem is that getting to that feeling often times takes years, at least in my case. The other side if the coin is that most first year graduate students don't really realize what they are committing too and often times fail to think of the personal and economic ramifications of graduate school.

On the plus side the University will pay your tuition, so at the end of your degree you will not be in debt as you would have been had you attended law school or medical school. However, professional schools are typically 3-4 years in length, in graduate school you are signing up for 5-7 years on average. You will get paid during this time, but on average you will make 15-25k a year depending on school and research group, it sounds like you are on the high end of this bracket. You can also make more money if you have and NSF or similar fellowship, but the high end on those is 40k. The reason I bringing money up is because an average graduate student won't be able to save for retirement for example, and you are also unlikely to make the amount of money you are going to lose over a ph.d compared to if you go in the work force after college. Me and a friend worked it out one day and in order to make up the amount of money lost during your ph.d you would need a starting salary of nearly 250k after graduation, and that's based on average salary of physics B.S that chose to go into industry.

Also keep in mind you will be working 60-80 hour weeks for the next 5-7 years regularly, sometimes more. You will rarely have weekends off, and most of your time will be spent either coding, instrument building, baby sitting your experiment, or designing electronics.

Having said all that I would probably do it all over again, I have no idea why. I think there a sense of accomplishment that comes with a ph.d degree that for some people is difficult to attain in other avenues of life.

In terms of job prospects, I am currently looking for my next move. I am very interested in the financial sector and there was in fact a firm that was recruiting in the last meeting I attended. I handed them my resume and I got pretty far in the interview process, however during the second technical interview the quant I was talking with said "You sound pretty enthusiastic about your research are you sure you want to do this" that and coupled with some really hard technical questions led to me receiving an e-mail that said " we think you are qualified for this job but we don't think there is a match in our current research team". I don't know if that was code for we think you are stupid or if I was too excited about my research. I also applied to Intel and got and interview there but completely bombed it because I really wasn't interested in micro processor manufacturing. Currently I am going through the interview process at Hitachi, have no idea how it will turn out but I figure most of this is just practice since I still have another 8 months until graduation.

My bigger point is that, at least in my experience, there seem to be people hiring physicist out there. Maybe I am just not what they are looking for. But, I got the sense from talking to recruiters and from my interviews that anyone with semi conductor, graphite, or polymer physics experience would be a of great value in the industrial sector. I think you would have great opportunities if you did you ph.d in photovoltaic. There are also post doc opportunities, which I am personally considering because I could transition into a field that has more application to the industrial sector, even do I love superconductors and have become very intrigued by topological insulators.

I don't how much this opus will help you, I apologize for the length but this has been my thoughts on my ph.d degree.

 

[armis]

I am finishing my ph.d in experimental condensed matter this fall the thesis defense is basically scheduled. So I can't say that I can directly answer your question directly but I can offer my 2 cents at least. I think that often times when people choose to get a ph.d in physics it feels like some sort of calling and many of the graduate students I meet have no idea why they are really doing it, many just tell me "I love physics and I had to continue to learn more about it".

I was definitely like them when I started, I wanted a sense of accomplishment and I only got that from doing research. There no feeling like having a very nice results that explains something that was previously unknown. Its extremely addictive and gratifying. However, the problem is that getting to that feeling often times takes years, at least in my case. The other side if the coin is that most first year graduate students don't really realize what they are committing too and often times fail to think of the personal and economic ramifications of graduate school.

On the plus side the University will pay your tuition, so at the end of your degree you will not be in debt as you would have been had you attended law school or medical school. However, professional schools are typically 3-4 years in length, in graduate school you are signing up for 5-7 years on average. You will get paid during this time, but on average you will make 15-25k a year depending on school and research group, it sounds like you are on the high end of this bracket. You can also make more money if you have and NSF or similar fellowship, but the high end on those is 40k. The reason I bringing money up is because an average graduate student won't be able to save for retirement for example, and you are also unlikely to make the amount of money you are going to lose over a ph.d compared to if you go in the work force after college. Me and a friend worked it out one day and in order to make up the amount of money lost during your ph.d you would need a starting salary of nearly 250k after graduation, and that's based on average salary of physics B.S that chose to go into industry.

Also keep in mind you will be working 60-80 hour weeks for the next 5-7 years regularly, sometimes more. You will rarely have weekends off, and most of your time will be spent either coding, instrument building, baby sitting your experiment, or designing electronics.

Having said all that I would probably do it all over again, I have no idea why. I think there a sense of accomplishment that comes with a ph.d degree that for some people is difficult to attain in other avenues of life.

In terms of job prospects, I am currently looking for my next move. I am very interested in the financial sector and there was in fact a firm that was recruiting in the last meeting I attended. I handed them my resume and I got pretty far in the interview process, however during the second technical interview the quant I was talking with said "You sound pretty enthusiastic about your research are you sure you want to do this" that and coupled with some really hard technical questions led to me receiving an e-mail that said " we think you are qualified for this job but we don't think there is a match in our current research team". I don't know if that was code for we think you are stupid or if I was too excited about my research. I also applied to Intel and got and interview there but completely bombed it because I really wasn't interested in micro processor manufacturing. Currently I am going through the interview process at Hitachi, have no idea how it will turn out but I figure most of this is just practice since I still have another 8 months until graduation.

My bigger point is that, at least in my experience, there seem to be people hiring physicist out there. Maybe I am just not what they are looking for. But, I got the sense from talking to recruiters and from my interviews that anyone with semi conductor, graphite, or polymer physics experience would be a of great value in the industrial sector. I think you would have great opportunities if you did you ph.d in photovoltaic. There are also post doc opportunities, which I am personally considering because I could transition into a field that has more application to the industrial sector, even do I love superconductors and have become very intrigued by topological insulators.

I don't how much this opus will help you, I apologize for the length but this has been my thoughts on my ph.d degree.

Thanks! This was most helpful. I didn't mind the length and I wished it was twice as long!

Did you do your PhD in your home country or abroad?

 

[Mr.Fermion]

Yes I did my Ph.D in my home country, but not in my home state

 

[Robert1986]

First of all, let me say that I do not have a Ph.D. and I wonder the same things that the OP wonders. I am beginning grad school in August - M.S. in Math. Now, my plan is to "seamlessly" (ok, so I don't know how seamless it will be, but a guy can dream, right?) transition into the Ph.D.

But, why didn't I apply directly to the Ph.D? I sort of straddle the "traditional student" and "not traditional student" fence. I started college when I was 21 (at a community college). I have had a full time job since I was 19; I am now 26 and I am graduating this May. Now, most people are finishing up their Math Ph.D.s at this age (or are VERY close), but I am, in essence, just starting mine. Now, I think that nearly everyone who is older than about 24 would agree that you are a MUCH different person at 19 than at 22, and a (slightly less) different person at 24 than at 22. What does all this matter? Well, I have about 4 extra years of maturity over your average 22 year old college grad. Right now, all I want to do is to be a mathematician. HOWEVER, I realize that a Ph.D. is a HUGE commitment; one that lots of people (most?) who start are not able to finish. The M.S. is a way to get my feet wet with doing actual math but without the risk of starting a Ph.D. and not being able to finish it. I am fairly confident that I will be able to complete the M.S., but at this point, I am not that confident about my abilities to complete the Ph.D. (doing research is a little different than learning stuff other people have researched.) If I don't have the talent to get the Ph.D. I will at least have a M.S. in math and I am fairly confident that I will be able to find a job doing something. Now, I know this might make some people mad (it certainly did in another thread, though I got snippier than I needed to), but do you see one common problem among the people who either said the Ph.D. wasn't worth it or who aren't sure? I think everyone of them cited some sort of student debt issues. For example, one is taking classes JUST to avoid having to repay the loan. Particle Girl can't take a job as a postdoc partly because she makes more money as a bartender and needs this money to repay loans. This is a very stressful situation to be in. I know, I was once buried in debt (no more, thought). So, if you decide to get the Ph.D. do so WITH OUT debt. Now, hopefully I will get a Ph.D. and will get to do a postdoc somewhere. This will be much easier since I don't have debt to repay. Now, there are certainly some disadvantages to this, as I said I am 26 and have worked full time on my way through college. This has majorly sucked; it has taken me 5.5 years to finish a B.S.!

But, let me say this again: Don't Do Debt. Many people will say something like "Well, I know I'll be able to pay it off quickly because of X and Y and Z." However, I would imagine that every single person who is buried in student debt, and whose career is suffering because of debt said the same exact thing.

So, to answer the initial question, I would say I don't know if mine is going to be worth it, but I do know that debt will not play a role in this decision, and I suggest the same thing for anyone else.

 

[ParticleGrl]

Particle Girl can't take a job as a postdoc partly because she makes more money as a bartender and needs this money to repay loans.

Its more then needing money to repay loans though- its the desire to make more money than a first year college grad with my phd. 35k a year when you are highly skilled, in your late 20s is simply awful. I paid off my debt in full in less than two years of bartending. But what I wanted is an ability to save and the modicum of security needed to settle in and start a family. A postdoc can't provide that. Bartending DID.

And now that I've moved on and I'm doing data analysis for an insurance company I still don't particularly feel like my phd was worth it. I make decent money at a decent job, but nothing a learned in graduate school is useful for my work. I have all this knowledge that I can't do a single thing with.

I know, I was once buried in debt (no more, thought). So, if you decide to get the Ph.D. do so WITH OUT debt. Now, hopefully I will get a Ph.D. and will get to do a postdoc somewhere. This will be much easier since I don't have debt to repay. Now, there are certainly some disadvantages to this, as I said I am 26 and have worked full time on my way through college. This has majorly sucked; it has taken me 5.5 years to finish a B.S.!

I'm three years older than you. I have a phd, I'm debt free (and have actually saved quite a bit) and I'm working the same sort of research job (in insurance) that the majority of physics phds I know are also doing. My student loan debt did nothing to hinder my career.

Also, I went to one of the best physics graduate schools in the country, which I was able to do in part because I took out loans in order to attend one of the best undergraduate institutions in the country.

My disillusionment is that I thought a phd in physics mostly would lead to a career doing science or engineering and I've discovered instead that it mostly leads to a career in finance,insurance, management consulting, etc.

 

[Pyrrhus]

My disillusionment is that I thought a phd in physics mostly would lead to a career doing science or engineering and I've discovered instead that it mostly leads to a career in finance,insurance, management consulting, etc.

I definitely can sympathize with this. In my case, that is the direction a PhD in Econ will lead, so I am ok with that. It must be tough for a PhD in physics not to end up in physics or engineering.

 

[Robert1986]

The next strongest is probably pay- I'd take home significantly less than half of what I make bartending as a postdoc. I'm at the stage in my life where I need to start paying off school loans and trying to get myself to a more sound economic footing- I'm hoping to start a family in the next few years.

This is really what I meant when I was referring to you; this was your answer to "why don't you get a post-doc" (or something like that.)

I think you and I are in sort of similar positions in life. We are both married, so we are pretty geographically constrained (right?). However, I won't have to worry about the debt thing when deciding if I want a post-doc. That is all I was saying.

One last thing: I am also at a very good undergrad school, but I have done so without debt. The point being that it is possible to go to a good school without debt.

 

[ParticleGrl]

I think you and I are in sort of similar positions in life. We are both married, so we are pretty geographically constrained (right?). However, I won't have to worry about the debt thing when deciding if I want a post-doc. That is all I was saying.

Right- but you WILL have to worry about saving for retirement, uprooting your significant other (and possibly kids) to move to a foreign country, etc. Yes, you'll be debt free, but you are also be older- which adds its own substantial difficulties to the low-pay, no-benefits, relocate-across-the-globe postdoc lifestyle. Can you take a postdoc in a foreign country if your wife can't get a work visa,etc? These are concerns a younger person might not have.

 

[Sheets]

I think the PhD was worth it for me. But barely.

Somehow I've stayed in science despite going to an unremarkable 2nd tier small private college and getting a PhD at another 2nd tier university. Partly this was a calculated effort on my part--I recognized an area where the hiring prospects were decent and moved in that direction while in graduate school. And a good bit of luck helped me too.

The worthwhile part of the PhD is having a job I somewhat enjoy and getting to sit around and think about interesting things & solve interesting problems. This is exactly what I wanted when I was 20 years old & for a lower middle class boy from the rural midwest it feels like I've come a long ways.

The problem is that I'm not the same person I was when I was 20. Working crazy long hours no longer appeals to me (even though I still do). When you hit your early 30s the opportunity cost of going to grad school is much more apparent. If you stay in science your job prospects are geographically limited & while I feel I could make the transition to industry fairly easily it would take me closer to someplace I don't want to live.

 

[SaraSmith]

I think PhD in physics was somehow worth for me as I enjoyed 10 years of my life (phD+postdoc) doing research, learned new things, and met so many interesting people within international research collaborations. But in terms of job prospect which is now my concern, as I am older and cannot work as hard, it was not worth. For sure a master in engineering would have taken me to a much better situation in terms of career in industry that I am interested in now.

 

[jesse73]

The good part about physicists doing finance is that those physicists actually learn how compound interest works and why saving money for retirement/etc earlier in your life span is so important and therefore why with a high paying job they are barely catching up with people who started to save for retirement earlier(MEng, BEng).

 

[analogdesign]

The good part about physicists doing finance is that those physicists actually learn how compound interest works and why saving money for retirement/etc earlier in your life span is so important and therefore why with a high paying job they are barely catching up with people who started to save for retirement earlier(MEng, BEng).

I was wondering how long it would take to read a sarcastic reply...

 

[MathematicalPhysicist]

The good part about physicists doing finance is that those physicists actually learn how compound interest works and why saving money for retirement/etc earlier in your life span is so important and therefore why with a high paying job they are barely catching up with people who started to save for retirement earlier(MEng, BEng).

If (almost) everyone were with Engineering diploma then the competition would be fierce than it is now in industry, and they'll become a cheap working force.

You should thank them physicists.

 

[moontiger]

I got my PhD in theoretical condensed matter physics from a Big 5 university. I did a postdoc and spent a year as a liberal arts college faculty member before leaving for industry, as the liberal arts college was in a small rural town and my life prospects there were nil.

The PhD was absolutely not worth it for me. I work for engineers with Bachelors and Masters degrees who have been in the workforce a decade longer than me. I work with doctors who spent the same amount of time training as I did, but have total job security and earn about twice as much as I do.

The PhD, postdoc, etc. forced me to push marriage and motherhood into my mid-30s, which had all kinds of bad life consequences that I realize only now.

The time I spent in school/postdoc, I could instead have spent saving up sick leave and funds for retirement, or building up a career so I could have taken some time off when I had a baby instead of returning after 12 weeks.

So no, my physics PhD--even from a Big Five institution--was not worth it. It's hard to admit that, but there it is. A PhD in engineering, CS, or another field with better job prospects might have been. I think an MD definitely would have been. I'm not saying it might not be worth it for other folks, but for me it was not.

Best of luck.

 

[jesse73]

If (almost) everyone were with Engineering diploma then the competition would be fierce than it is now in industry, and they'll become a cheap working force.

You should thank them physicists.

There is a really small amount of phd physicists graduating for year compared to other majors.

 

[ChrisVer]

I haven't yet started a phd, however from my point of view, you cannot appreciate physics except for if you do some research by your own... otherwise, why studying and getting so much knowledge if you won't try to do something by yourself?