Can we measure the reciprocal effect of gravity on photon trajectory?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of whether gravity can be influenced by the trajectory of photons, exploring the idea of a reciprocal effect between gravity and light. Participants reference gravitational bending of light, particularly in the context of Einstein's Cross and gravitational lensing, while speculating on the potential for photons to create detectable gravitational fields.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that gravity bends photon trajectories, supported by experimental evidence of gravitational bending.
  • There is speculation about the possibility of photons creating a gravitational field, with some arguing that energy, like mass, can curve space.
  • Concerns are raised about the technological advancements required to measure the gravitational effects of photons, with estimates suggesting it may take a century to achieve.
  • One participant mentions that measurements of gravitational attraction between small masses have been made, prompting requests for references to support this claim.
  • There is a suggestion that future observations of high-energy photons from gamma-ray bursts (GRBs) could provide insights into the gravitational effects of photons.
  • Participants express differing views on whether laboratory measurements or astrophysical observations would be more feasible for detecting these effects.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the feasibility of measuring the gravitational field produced by photons, with multiple competing views on the technological requirements and potential observational strategies.

Contextual Notes

Some discussions involve assumptions about the current state of technology and the precision of gravitational measurements, which remain unresolved.

PRodQuanta
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Ok, here goes nothing...
Gravity bends photon trajectory, correct? This can be varrified by experiments pertaining to gravatational bending. I THINK also termed 'Einstein's Cross'.
Now, is there a possibility that there is a reciprocal effect? That gravity could be created, or related to the curved trajectory of a photon?

Paden Roder
 
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Originally posted by PRodQuanta
Gravity bends photon trajectory, correct? This can be verified by experiments pertaining to gravitational bending. I THINK also termed 'Einstein's Cross'.
A.k.a. gravitational deflection (of light). Lots and lots of observations and verified to a high degree of accuracy. First test was by Eddington, in 1919, during a solar eclipse. More here:
http://www.Newtonphysics.on.ca/ECLIPSE/Eclipse.html

Einstein Cross refers to a quasar which is on the line of sight through a much closer galaxy. E.g.:
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap961215.html

The closer galaxy acts as a special lens, magnifying and distorting the image of the background quasar. Several such examples have now been found. The image properties allow further tests of GR, and also many interesting and important estimates, of things like dark matter.

The more general case is called 'gravitational lensing'.
 
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And yes, photons carry energy. Energy curves space exactly as well as does mass. Of course, you'd have to have quite a bit of light energy around to make a gravitation field detectable in a laboratory...

- Warren
 
Originally posted by chroot
And yes, photons carry energy. Energy curves space exactly as well as does mass. Of course, you'd have to have quite a bit of light energy around to make a gravitation field detectable in a laboratory...
IIRC, the gravitational attraction between quite small masses (<1 gram) and over short distances (<1 mm) has now been measured.

Photons with energies > 10 TeV have been detected, albeit indirectly.

When (200n, 20nm?, 2nmp??) do you expect a successful observation of the gravitational field produced by a photon will be made?
 
Well, the technology that would be needed to generate those photons and the technology to measure their gravitation are both many orders of magnitude more sophisticated that current cutting edge technology.

Without specifically knowing the rate of advancement of these fields, I'd venture it'll be at least 100 years away.

- Warren
 
Originally posted by Nereid
IIRC, the gravitational attraction between quite small masses (<1 gram) and over short distances (<1 mm) has now been measured.


Can you quote a reference? I was unaware that measurements of gravitational fields had reached this precision.

Claude.
 
Amazing...
 
Originally posted by PRodQuanta
Ok, here goes nothing...
Gravity bends photon trajectory, correct? This can be verified by experiments pertaining to gravitational bending. I THINK also termed 'Einstein's Cross'.
Now, is there a possibility that there is a reciprocal effect? That gravity could be created, or related to the curved trajectory of a photon?
Yes.

I asked: When [to] expect a successful observation of the gravitational field produced by a photon will be made?
chroot answered:
Well, the technology that would be needed to generate those photons and the technology to measure their gravitation are both many orders of magnitude more sophisticated that current cutting edge technology.

Without specifically knowing the rate of advancement of these fields, I'd venture it'll be at least 100 years away.
At least two astronomers think it will be possible before 2010, by observing the frequency-dependent propagation of high-energy photons from GRBs (strictly speaking, they feel that GLAST observations may be able to test quantum gravity, but the data may also show the effect PRodQuanta asks about, and perhaps even the VSL of paultrr!). The link:
http://glast.gsfc.nasa.gov/science/grbst/pubs/GLAST_GRBs_QG.pdf

A big thanks to Jeebus for his pointer to this
 
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  • #10


Originally posted by Nereid

At least two astronomers think it will be possible before 2010, by observing the frequency-dependent propagation of high-energy photons from GRBs
You know, the sad part is that I did not consider astrophysical systems -- I was thinking about measuring the effect in a laboratory!

Nereid, the proposal does sound promising!

- Warren
 

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