11 coordinate system for separation of variables

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of the eleven coordinate systems in which the field equations of physics can be separated, as mentioned in the context of Eisenhart's work and popularized by Moon and Spencer. Participants explore the implications of this concept, its historical context, and the specific coordinate systems involved.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant recalls a vague memory about there being only 11 coordinate systems for separating field equations and seeks confirmation and clarification.
  • Another participant suggests that the 11 coordinate systems are those of Eisenhart, noting that the significance of this number may not be as profound as initially thought, and that it varies with the equations of interest.
  • It is mentioned that the separability of equations like the Helmholtz equation can lead to different conclusions depending on the coordinate systems used, with examples including bispherical coordinates.
  • A list of the eleven coordinate systems is provided, including rectangular, cylindrical, spherical, and various other specialized coordinates.
  • Participants express curiosity about the reason for the specific number of eleven and its significance in the context of separable systems.
  • References to additional literature, including works by Morse and Feshback, are suggested for further exploration of the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the significance of the number eleven or the implications of the coordinate systems discussed. Multiple viewpoints are presented regarding the relevance and context of these systems.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the dependence on specific equations and coordinate systems, as well as the historical context of the findings. There are unresolved questions regarding the mathematical proofs and the foundational ideas behind the separability of these systems.

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TL;DR
Why are there 11?
Good Morning

I have a very vague memory of having read (about 40 years ago) that there are only 11 coordinate systems in which the field equations of physics can be separated.

I can no longer be sure if my memory has failed me. But this issue has been in my head for all these years. (Gotta do something during quarantine; and a good luck to all of you while I am at it.)

Can someone tell me if this is true?

If it is true, can you list the names of the coordinate systems (I can look up, on my own, what they look like).

And, more important... why 11?
 
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You are probably thinking of the 11 coordinate systems of Eisenhart popularized by Moon and Spencer. The result is not as profound as you recall. The answer changes depending won the coordinates and equations you are interested in. If one is interested in coordinates of degree 1 and 2 in 3 dimentions and equations related to Helmholtz equation there are 11 sets. One might also consider coordinates of other degree in particular 4. The Laplace equation is often separable when other equations are not for example bispherical coordinates. More complicated equations may not be separable when Helmholtz equation is.

some references

EISENHART, L. P.: Separable systems of STACKEL. Ann. Math. 35, 284 (1934). -
Stackel systems in conformal euclidean space. Ann. Math. 36, 57 (1935).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadric
https://mathworld.wolfram.com/OrthogonalCoordinateSystem.html
https://mathworld.wolfram.com/SeparationofVariables.html
https://mathworld.wolfram.com/BisphericalCoordinates.html

some Moon and Spencer References taken from
https://mathworld.wolfram.com/SeparationofVariables.html
Moon, P. and Spencer, D. E. "Separability Conditions for the Laplace and Helmholtz Equations." J. Franklin Inst. 253, 585-600, 1952.
Moon, P. and Spencer, D. E. "Theorems on Separability in Riemannian n-space." Proc. Amer. Math. Soc. 3, 635-642, 1952.
Moon, P. and Spencer, D. E. "Recent Investigations of the Separation of Laplace's Equation." Proc. Amer. Math. Soc. 4, 302-307, 1953.
Moon, P. and Spencer, D. E. "Separability in a Class of Coordinate Systems." J. Franklin Inst. 254, 227-242, 1952.
Moon, P. and Spencer, D. E. Field Theory for Engineers. Princeton, NJ: Van Nostrand, 1961.
Moon, P. and Spencer, D. E. "Eleven Coordinate Systems." §1 in Field Theory Handbook, Including Coordinate Systems, Differential Equations, and Their Solutions, 2nd ed. New York: Springer-Verlag, pp. 1-48, 1988.

some lists taken from
Moon, P. and Spencer, D. E. "Eleven Coordinate Systems." §1 in Field Theory Handbook, Including Coordinate Systems, Differential Equations, and Their Solutions, 2nd ed. New York: Springer-Verlag, pp. 1-48, 1988.

The eleven coordinate systems [3J, formed from first and second degree surfaces,
are as follows:
Cylindrical
1. Rectangular coordinates (x, y,z), Fig. 1.01.
2. Circular-cylinder coordinates (r, "P, z), Fig. 1.02.
3· Elliptic-cylinder coordinates ('Y},"P,z), Fig. 1.03.
4. Parabolic-cylinder coordinates (/-l, '1', z), Fig. 1.04.
Rotational
5. Spherical coordinates (r, O,"P), Fig. 1.05.
6. Prolate spheroidal coordinates ('Y}, 0, "P), Fig. 1.06.
7. Oblate spheroidal coordinates ('Y}, 0, "P), Fig. 1.07-
8. Parabolic coordinates (/-l, '1', "P), Fig. 1.08.
General
9. Conical coordinates (r, 0, A), Fig. 1.09.
10. Ellipsoidal coordinates ('Y}, 0, A), Fig. 1.10.
11. Paraboloidal coordinates (/-l, '1', A), Fig. 1.11.

The partial differential equations considered in this book are as follows:
(1) Laplace's equation
(2) Poissons's equation
(3 ) The diffusion equation
(4) The wave equation
(5) The damped wave equation
(6) Transmission line equation
(7) The vector wave equation

Those are the equations related to Helmholtz equation
 
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lurflurf said:
You are probably thinking of the 11 coordinate systems of Eisenhart popularized by Moon and Spencer. The result is not as profound as you recall. The answer changes depending won the coordinates and equations you are interested in. If one is interested in coordinates of degree 1 and 2 in 3 dimentions and equations related to Helmholtz equation there are 11 sets. One might also consider coordinates of other degree in particular 4. The Laplace equation is often separable when other equations are not for example bispherical coordinates. More complicated equations may not be separable when Helmholtz equation is.

some references

EISENHART, L. P.: Separable systems of STACKEL. Ann. Math. 35, 284 (1934). -
Stackel systems in conformal euclidean space. Ann. Math. 36, 57 (1935).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadric
https://mathworld.wolfram.com/OrthogonalCoordinateSystem.html
https://mathworld.wolfram.com/SeparationofVariables.html
https://mathworld.wolfram.com/BisphericalCoordinates.html

some Moon and Spencer References taken from
https://mathworld.wolfram.com/SeparationofVariables.html
Moon, P. and Spencer, D. E. "Separability Conditions for the Laplace and Helmholtz Equations." J. Franklin Inst. 253, 585-600, 1952.
Moon, P. and Spencer, D. E. "Theorems on Separability in Riemannian n-space." Proc. Amer. Math. Soc. 3, 635-642, 1952.
Moon, P. and Spencer, D. E. "Recent Investigations of the Separation of Laplace's Equation." Proc. Amer. Math. Soc. 4, 302-307, 1953.
Moon, P. and Spencer, D. E. "Separability in a Class of Coordinate Systems." J. Franklin Inst. 254, 227-242, 1952.
Moon, P. and Spencer, D. E. Field Theory for Engineers. Princeton, NJ: Van Nostrand, 1961.
Moon, P. and Spencer, D. E. "Eleven Coordinate Systems." §1 in Field Theory Handbook, Including Coordinate Systems, Differential Equations, and Their Solutions, 2nd ed. New York: Springer-Verlag, pp. 1-48, 1988.

some lists taken from
Moon, P. and Spencer, D. E. "Eleven Coordinate Systems." §1 in Field Theory Handbook, Including Coordinate Systems, Differential Equations, and Their Solutions, 2nd ed. New York: Springer-Verlag, pp. 1-48, 1988.

The eleven coordinate systems [3J, formed from first and second degree surfaces,
are as follows:
Cylindrical
1. Rectangular coordinates (x, y,z), Fig. 1.01.
2. Circular-cylinder coordinates (r, "P, z), Fig. 1.02.
3· Elliptic-cylinder coordinates ('Y},"P,z), Fig. 1.03.
4. Parabolic-cylinder coordinates (/-l, '1', z), Fig. 1.04.
Rotational
5. Spherical coordinates (r, O,"P), Fig. 1.05.
6. Prolate spheroidal coordinates ('Y}, 0, "P), Fig. 1.06.
7. Oblate spheroidal coordinates ('Y}, 0, "P), Fig. 1.07-
8. Parabolic coordinates (/-l, '1', "P), Fig. 1.08.
General
9. Conical coordinates (r, 0, A), Fig. 1.09.
10. Ellipsoidal coordinates ('Y}, 0, A), Fig. 1.10.
11. Paraboloidal coordinates (/-l, '1', A), Fig. 1.11.

The partial differential equations considered in this book are as follows:
(1) Laplace's equation
(2) Poissons's equation
(3 ) The diffusion equation
(4) The wave equation
(5) The damped wave equation
(6) Transmission line equation
(7) The vector wave equation

Those are the equations related to Helmholtz equation
Great! Wonderful. Thank You.But now my ridiculoous questoin... WHY ELEVEN?

What is so special?
 
See Morse and Feshback, there are others.
 
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The result, summarized in

Eisenhart - Separable Systems in Euclidean 3-Space

seems to be proven in

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1968433

and seems to depend on

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2306278

If anyone goes through these and gets a sense of the idea of the theorem, proof and where it comes from, post your thoughts here it would be good to see.
 

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