1905 paper Does the Inertia of a Body Depend Upon its Energy-Content?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around Einstein's 1905 paper "Does the Inertia of a Body Depend Upon its Energy-Content?" Participants analyze the Taylor expansion used by Einstein to derive the equation E=mc², debating the accuracy of the expansion and its implications for velocities approaching the speed of light.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asserts that Einstein's Taylor expansion is correct when only the first term is kept for low velocities (v<
  • Another participant challenges the first claim, stating that the second term in the expansion should be (1/2)(v/c)², leading to the kinetic energy term (1/2)mv².
  • A different participant provides a detailed expansion, suggesting that the first four terms of the Taylor series should be considered, and questions whether these terms should appear below mc².
  • One participant critiques the approach of finding corrections to the Newtonian kinetic energy, labeling it as outdated and primarily of historical interest.
  • Another participant highlights Einstein's own words from the paper, indicating that E=mc² is an approximation valid under certain conditions, specifically when (v/c)² is much less than one.
  • A participant reiterates the initial claim about the approximation and discusses the context of energy measurements, emphasizing that rest mass energy (E₀) typically cancels out in energy difference equations.
  • One participant comments on the influence of the politics of physics on the clarity of Einstein's statements in the paper, suggesting that Einstein's career choices may have affected his presentation of ideas.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the accuracy of the Taylor expansion and its implications. There is no consensus on the correct interpretation of Einstein's work or the validity of the proposed corrections to the kinetic energy term.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in the assumptions made about the Taylor expansion and the conditions under which E=mc² is considered accurate. The discussion reflects varying interpretations of Einstein's intentions and the historical context of his work.

edpell
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1905 paper "Does the Inertia of a Body Depend Upon its Energy-Content?

In his 1905 paper Einstein uses a Taylor expansion and keeps only the first term (an approximation) to derive E=mc^2 which is good if v<<c but if v is not <<c then we need more terms. If we keep the first three terms then mc^2 is divided by
(1 + 3/4(v/c)^2 + 15/8(v/c)^4)
have I done the Taylor series correctly? Do we all agree? This number of terms would be good as long as (v/c)^4 <<1 say up to v=0.4c. Is this correct?
 
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Your expansion is wrong. The second term is (1/2)(v/c)^2 which lead to (1/2)mv^2.
Also, generally in an expansion like that if the second term isn't already small, there's not much point in continuing the expansion.
 


clem the Taylor expansion is
1 + (1/2)(v/c)^2 + (3/8)(v/c)^4 + (15/8)(v/c)^6 + ...
the 1 is canceled by the -1 in the previous equation
a factor of (1/2)(v/c)^2 is factored out so that Einstein gets
K0-K1 = (1/2)(E/c^2)v^2 by taking only the first term he then equates m=E/c^2
or E=mc^2
if we factor out (1/2)(v/c)^2 the Taylor expansion minus one is to four terms
1+3/4(v/c)^2+(15/8)(v/c)^4 which must appear below the mc^2 yes? no?
 


You mean you are finding corrections to (1/2)mv^2? That is an archaic, clumsy way to proceed, only of interest to historians.
 


In his paper Einstein says "Neglecting magnitudes of fourth and higher orders we may place..."
He seems to say that it is an approximation. I never knew that E = m[tex]c^2[/tex] is an approximation that only hold if [tex](v/c)^2[/tex] <<1.
 


edpell said:
In his 1905 paper Einstein uses a Taylor expansion and keeps only the first term (an approximation) to derive E=mc^2 which is good if v<<c but if v is not <<c then we need more terms. If we keep the first three terms then mc^2 is divided by
(1 + 3/4(v/c)^2 + 15/8(v/c)^4)
have I done the Taylor series correctly? Do we all agree? This number of terms would be good as long as (v/c)^4 <<1 say up to v=0.4c. Is this correct?

Einstein is not an easy read! One thing to keep in mind in reading Einstein is his humble respect for Newton. So he is careful not to say something like "I'm right, and Newton was wrong". You have to carefully read between the lines.

E=mc2 is the accurate result. Einstein is claiming that the Newtonian result, E = E0 + (1/2)mv2 is an approximation and true when v<<c.

He claims that the expansion is accurate and the Newtonian result, E = E0 + (1/2)mv2 is an approximation.

E0 doesn't really show-up in Newtonian energy because measurements of energy are always measurements of energy differences. For instance, when we calculate the energy in a battery we don't include the energy that is the mass of the battery. Since E0 is the rest mass energy, it doesn't usually change except when elementry particles change into other elementry particles. E0 drops-out of energy differerence equations except for these cases. So without atomic reactions it shows-up on both sides of an equation, and cancels:

[tex]E_0 + E_a = E_0 + E_b[/tex]

[tex]E_a = E_b[/tex]
 
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So the politics of physics is getting in the way of a clear statement of the physics of physics (in Einstein's paper)? Of course he ended up with lifetime tenure at the Institute for Advanced Studies so I would have to say he made the smart choice.
 

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