A ridiculous way of warning

[Frabjous]

The mentors are subjective. This is not breaking news.

That this thread is not closed is an example. Most threads about warning specifics get closed because the mentors generally refuse to discuss the details in public.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Hey folks, it's not breaking news that I don't want PF to be a trash pit. If you're looking for comedy freedom, join a comedy forum. This is a high standards science community which allows for light hearted and clean joke threads.

 

[fresh_42]

Oh stop it. You're telling me that it's just a wild coincidence that you used whale and cow as figures for strong and independent and that those just happen to be the common insults towards women? Why didn't you use the animals lioness and eagle?

Because I didn't think about it. I just translated the German words that I've read. The absurdity is the joke: baby is considered acceptable, whale is not. If you think about it, then it should be the other way around.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Because I didn't think about it. I just translated the German words that I've read. The absurdity is the joke: baby is considered acceptable, whale is not. If you think about it, then it should be the other way around.

I get that. It's a commentary on why baby is acceptable and whale is not. The historical and cultural baggage on this topic leaves it best for opinion articles on another site rather than a joke on a science site.

 

[fresh_42]

The word "ridiculous" in my thread title was not because of the warning, although I still consider it an overreaction and a simple deletion would have done, especially as I cannot see an insult and do not share the opinion of the ruling. What made me angry was that I hadn't been told what led to the warning! How can that help the "community spirit"? The intention was obviously a different one!

 

[AlexB23]

The word "ridiculous" in my thread title was not because of the warning, although I still consider it an overreaction and a simple deletion would have done, especially as I cannot see an insult and do not share the opinion of the ruling. What made me angry was that I hadn't been told what led to the warning! How can that help the "community spirit"? The intention was obviously a different one!

Ahh, man. I do not know who to side with. A simple AI generated explanation on why the joke may have been misconstrued could be posted by the mentor in the explanation for your warning, or he/she could have DMed you.

 

[symbolipoint]

Thank you. I am not a native English speaker and did not know about this. The joke only needed a contrast to calling women "baby," which, in fact, would be in a way insulting. Any other big animal would have done. The joke relied on this contrast and, in a way, on the fact that whale is insulting. The discrepancy between "baby" and "whale" was the joke. I didn't promote calling women a whale; I demonstrated an absurdity! So poor taste isn't justified, as the joke is based on the fact that this would be inexcusable. It promotes the opposite!

At least my conclusion stands: not knowing such subtleties of a foreign language results in a warning rather than information translates to: my English is too poor for PF. Got it. And yet, the warning itself is insufficient. "poor taste" and "too many" without knowing whose "taste" has been the measure, and in this particular case, obviously, the inability to understand the clue of this joke, and what made it "many" is despotism, not a warning.

We need some set of human absolutes. Question is, can true human absolutes be known?

 

[symbolipoint]

So far I have reached to post #14. This is some of the craziest arguing I have seen on physicsforum in a long time.

Somebody once composed part of a joke:
"Officer, I would like to report a joke."

 

[AlexB23]

We need some set of human absolutes. Question is, can true human absolutes be known?

Moral relativity, if I am not mistaken. Man, philosophy is complicated. The answer probably is somewhere in between, in the gray areas.

 

[Algr]

I once was scolded for quoting a professor at Cornell. I win!

Ha. I once had a mod here say that electrolysis of water was pseudoscience. And then they refused to respond when I asked for clarification. (It was ages ago, so the record of this is gone now.)

 

[symbolipoint]

Yes, but it mocks the insult of a comparison of a woman with a baby. I do not twist anything; I demand reading skills, and warnings that

1. do not realy on assessments like taste, poor, too many
2. inform about what was wrong
3. provide examples if "too many" is used

Problem is, jokes can be complicated. Often easy to understand but more strenuous to explain, critisize, and re-interpret. Some joke and comedic telling experts chose off-limits things to not use as jokes, in their own way, with so much good reason. Phyllis Diller chose to NOT make jokes about human deformities.

edit: I added some phrasing for improved precision.

 

[symbolipoint]

I am siding with the mentors. Comparing a woman to a non-human is unacceptable in any culture. @fresh_42 was in the wrong here. As a young male, I was taught to respect all individuals, women and men alike. Making a joke about physical qualities or beliefs (race, weight, sex, religion, etc) is verboten. A no go.

Try to convince somebody who endearingly would call a girl or woman a kitten of that.

 

[AlexB23]

Try to convince somebody who endearingly would call a girl or woman a kitten of that.

I would not want to say those words either. Never compare people to animals. That could be a simple rule

 

[difalcojr]

All seems much ado about nothing. I myself have actually never heard the word whale used in this connotation. Have heard lots of other animal names used as comparisons, but never whale. All jokes will offend somebody, though; that's the nature of a joke, many jokes, anyway. Every race and culture has had jokes told about their habits, customs, etc. As in books like "Tasteless Jokes, Volume 19." We probably all know a few or many racial jokes. No race is safe from these. Comedians used to make people laugh by insulting people in the audience. I waited on Don Rickles at a casino restaurant when I was young, must have told him my name was Joe, and by the end of the dinner, he was calling me 'Joey'. He also went into the kitchen and thanked all the cooks, individually, for a great meal. He was a good guy, but always insulting.

Honest mistake of a word used is how I view this thread matter as juror member.

My girlfriend used to call everyone, even strangers, "honey", as in "Listen, honey, ..."

 

[Algr]

Any site that has any sort of standards is going to need to have public discussions on what those standards are. People can't just magically know what other people will find offensive. I know of a hispanic student who found "dear" offensive because he didn't know that in English it wasn't the same as "deer". And I have heard people call themselves "The whale" as in the biggest fish in the ocean.

Always know your audience.

But that is the point. He _can't_ know his audience if he doesn't know what was flagged or if the person who objected to it was the person being spoken to. Even now I can't piece the offence together well enough to figure out if it was reasonable or not. Was he quoting someone else? If that is the case, then you may have repeatedly done something worse than what Fresh_42 did.

Bad Moderation is worse than none. It causes threads like this one. If you don't have time to moderate well, then you shouldn't do it at all.

 

[256bits]

Had a guy at work who had some peculiar way of addressing woman beyond what a lot of people would consider the correct expected way taught when growing up ( ie .Sugar and spice and all that's nice ). And towards black people too. He had the knack of not offending them as they played along, and felt as one of the 'boys'. Until the one girl who used it against him in retaliation for her hours being cut, orders from upper management, but she blamed him and retaliated.. One day a friend, the next sworn enemy.
Woman in a good many western countries are not the gentler sex as envisioned from the Victorian times, an attitude that still lingers on.
Woman have demands. They are CEO's. They are leaders of countries.
Not much different than male expectations of success in the 'male dominated world' .

One thing to reflect upon is is the characters had been male in the jokes, would the outcome have been the same? Or is it really characterized as offensive under the guise of sexism.?

 

[symbolipoint]

And I have heard people call themselves "The whale" as in the biggest fish in the ocean.

Also used in relation to casino gambling to indicate a big in-practice gambler with a big supply of money

 

[dextercioby]

"The whale" is not the biggest fish in the ocean, but the "the whale shark" is. ;) Knowing this is what makes most or some people smarter than others.

 

[DaveC426913]

Weighing in, here.

I cannot speak as to whether anyone else did, but it was me who lodged the complaint, and I'm here to take my lumps.

But let me set the record straight (please read though before judging):

1. @fresh_42 posted a joke about calling someone a whale.
2. Very shortly thereafter, two other members - one quite new and one long-time veteran - posted jokes that directly fat-shamed women as the core of their ostensible humour.
   
   I thought, as a modern society, we were past that!
   
   
3. I reported those two subsequent posts as being in very poor taste. Unacceptably poor.
4. I reported fresh's joke only for the purposes of showing - by contrast - an example of one that was not, in my opinion, fat-shaming. Yes, it called the target a whale - but it also said why (which explicitly had nothing to do with being fat or large). There was no mention whatever of the target's size/weight - the joke "worked" independently of her physical stature. I reported it only because I wanted to highlight the difference, hoping that the mods would see the distinction. It was not my intention to have his joke removed, let alone have him penalized. For that, I apologize to @fresh_42.

That being said, I certainly understand why it was removed by the moderators, and I have no objection to that action. Some things skirt of the edge of taste, which is fine (theres lot's of jokes in here that skirt that edge) - but we see here an example of why that can be dangerous, because other people sometimes don't know where that line is, or, if they do, they cross it anyway. Sometimes this is simply a case of why we can't have nice things.

Once again I apologize to @fresh_42.

 

[sbrothy]

I've been issued my fair share of warnings. Most of them due to my own stupidity or laziness. Some of them due to language nuances (I'd like to think). I've sucked 'em up, apologized and moved on (perhaps after a chat with a moderator in private).

 

[AlexB23]

Weighing in, here.

I cannot speak as to whether anyone else did, but it was me who lodged the complaint, and I'm here to take my lumps.

But let me set the record straight (please read though before judging):

1. @fresh_42 posted a joke about calling someone a whale.
2. Very shortly thereafter, two other members - one quite new and one long-time veteran - posted jokes that directly fat-shamed women as the core of their ostensible humour.
   
   I thought, as a modern society, we were past that!
   
   
3. I reported those two subsequent posts as being in very poor taste. Unacceptably poor.
4. I reported fresh's joke only for the purposes of showing - by contrast - an example of one that was not, in my opinion, fat-shaming. Yes, it called the target a whale - but it also said why (which explicitly had nothing to do with being fat or large). There was no mention whatever of the target's size/weight - the joke "worked" independently of her physical stature. I reported it only because I wanted to highlight the difference, hoping that the mods would see the distinction. It was not my intention to have his joke removed, let alone have him penalized. For that, I apologize to @fresh_42.

That being said, I certainly understand why it was removed by the moderators, and I have no objection to that action. Some things skirt of the edge of taste, which is fine (theres lot's of jokes in here that skirt that edge) - but we see here why that can be dangerous, because other people sometimes don't know where that line is, or, if they do, they cross it anyway. Sometimes this is simply a case of why we can't have nice things.

Once again I apologize to @fresh_42.

I side with your view. It is 2025, and in no decade or century should people be shamed or joked about related to sex, creed, abilities, or race.

 

[Frabjous]

Bad Moderation is worse than none.

PF’s moderation is not bad. That the mentors do not consistently make judgment calls can be annoying, but I choose to view it as a feature which enables the sense of community which is lacking from other sites.

That being said, I fully expect to be banned someday due to nonexpiring warning points.

 

[berkeman]

That being said, I fully expect to be banned someday due to nonexpiring warning points.

Nah, you've been a model citizen for years. That is old and water under the bridge.