Advice for 35+ year old wanting a Physics PhD

[CaptainHindsight]

Hello All! I wanted to reach out for perspectives and advice on this "old-timer" wanting to do physics. At one point I was on that track, but quickly stumbled and lost my way for personal reasons.

Now, I'm 35 years old and want to finally pursue a lifelong goal of a PhD in physics. My age at application would be around 38. I'm in a good situation personally to pursue this goal. My wife is supportive of me, and we are in a good enough financial situation that I can do it (provided I have some sort of TA/RA-ship). The main constraint is that I'm limited to programs where her next role is located. From my point of view, possibly naïve, I think it would be better go to a larger physics program to have access to a broader array of potential advisors to improve to my odds of finding a really good fit for an advisor and topic. However, its likely that such programs in our new location would be ranked in the top 30-- on the level of UM-Twin Cities. I'm wondering how significant my age and circumstance would act against me in getting into such a program (or even if I should be looking at such programs).

I think I have enough math chops to make the cut, having a masters in math from a (USA) top 20 math program. As for the physics side, I intend to be pursuing either a masters in physics if available or taking courses (to develop recommendations) and preparing for the physics GRE. All that aside, my main concern is my age. How big of an issue is that?

My goals for the PhD are earnest but modest. I truly feel that I can't live a good life without contemplating "the nature of nature." Of course, you can kind of do this "on your own," but the PhD is, for me, to push myself to the max in that respect. After the PhD I'd ideally find work related to physics, but I'd be content working a quiet non-physics job (a realistic scenario given my current job and credentials) and spending my free time doing physics in a vibrant physics community. In terms of topics I'd skew more theoretical (foundational), but physics is so big I can't say too much more. Frankly, I'd probably be persuaded into almost any topic so long as I got along with the researcher and they had a philosophical bent to them.

Any thoughts?

 

[phyzguy]

I went back to school and got a physics PhD at age 55, so to me you are still a youngster. I don't think your age will be an issue as long as you are willing to put in the work to learn the material and do the research. I had to spend ~6 months reviewing basic physics and brushing up my math skills, but other than that, I had no real issues.

 

[Dale]

You do need to at least recognize the fact that financially this will be a loss. At your age the opportunity cost of the lost income during the PhD will certainly exceed any increased earning capacity through the remainder of your career.

That shouldn’t prevent you from doing it in principle, but you need to recognize that you would be doing it for non-financial reasons.

 

[Vanadium 50]

1. Your age, per se, is not an issue. I know people who started grad school in their 50's. However, the length of time you have been out of school might be. Who will be writing your letters of recommendation and what do you think they will say. "He got an A in my class 18 years ago" is not very strong. I think you need to put some thought into that.
2. Your thesis title will not be "Understanding the Nature of Nature" It will be more like "The Spectrum of Glopolium". You need to be 100% OK with that.
3. Finding an advisor with "a philosophical bent" may be harder than you think. Most scientists are very focused on the here and now - "where is the heat leak in my fridge?".
4. Depending on where your wife's new location is, you will have more or few choices of school. Boston, great. Urbana, Illinois or Lafayette, Indiana? Not so many. Are there places you could live where you would commute to Newark, Delaware and your wife to NYC? Sure. Would the commute be pleasant for either of you? Not so much. With your background, you want as many shots at grad school as you can get.
5. " spending my free time doing physics in a vibrant physics community." How does that work exactly? Especially if you have a 9-5 job? "Please come to work at 7AM so I can tell you you're doing it all wrong" does not sound appealing to me. I think you need to think this through.
6. Have you taken any physics classes? You don't mention any. If you haven't, this sounds like a much bigger obstacle than anything else.

 

[mpresic3]

By now, you have read the threads and found that age may not be your biggest impediment. I read Phyzguy's response and my first feeling was there's somebody older than me when earning his doctorate. Then I counted the years and found out we were about the same age.
I had an advisor once that we debated the nature of nature etc, and he had a "philosophical" bent. He also had no research money to support me, and TA ships, lengthened and lessened any chance of making it through the program in a timely manner. The fact is, you probably should not be looking for an advisor to debate or discuss philosophy. Most advisors ask their students to perform research in areas, where there is "low hanging fruit" to establish early successes that they can build on.
I was in a position to take physics classes with a teacher, who was also a researcher who occasionally took students from his classes, and developed their talent to achieve PhD's, without even taking them from their current jobs, although they had to take leave of absence for a year or two at the university to finish their research and their studies were lengthened over studying full time at graduate school. What you need is a kindly, well-meaning, competent, and established mentor as your advisor.
In this regard, it may not be necessary, or even desirable to assess a large group of opportunities. You will only really follow-up on one opportunity, anyway, if everything goes right. I think looking back, I dropped one graduate school program because I had too many choices and drifted from one advisor to another. I was finally successful when I was determined to make it work, no matter what. (PS we never discussed philosophy or the nature of nature)

 

[CaptainHindsight]

Thanks for the comments!

Its reassuring to hear that age won't be as significant barrier as I assumed. With regards to the other elements, I've actually thought through most of them pretty thoroughly already. Referencing Vanadium 50's list:

1. I'm spending the following year putting myself in a position to pay for a masters, or the approximate coursework, so that I can build a strong physics base and get fresh recommendations. I may still be able reach to out to old professors and get 1 or 2 fair/strong recommendations as a supplement .

2. I'm very aware of that. Pretty much everything is 90% grind and I have practical life experience with this. Still you have to first be certain about your "why?"

3. I haven't delved into the nitty-gritty of picking advisors yet, but am aware of its crucial importance. And forgive a little tongue-in-cheek but I'm unsure if cosmologists fit into the category of worrying about the here and now. For whatever reason, the phrase "philosophical bent" didn't go over well. An alternative translation would "a theoretical and foundational bent (or interest)".

4. Understood. Basically, if I'm restricted to one school and I don't get in, I can still go to colloquia and take classes, and perhaps get in the next year. If that fails? Well I can still just keep doing it as a hobby and probably come out of it with a friend or two. Mostly I wanted to appropriately set my expectations given my age since its the element of my applicant profile least under my control.

5. Basically what I said above--attending colloquia and perhaps have a working relationship with people at the university or near by. We'd be financially stable even if I was a house-husband (aka "kept man"). As for the 9-5 question, I think you'd be surprised by how many jobs out there are flexible enough to accommodate a researching physicist (theoretical). I speak from experience here. And a little more tongue-in-cheek, but didn't Einstein's patent office job do just this?

6. Yes some, up to intermediate mechanics. I was too immature and arrogant at that age to actually learn anything though. I assumed everything was just math and didn't absorb the underlying physical intuition. Despite that I performed very well in all those classes. I was way too absorbed in sorting out and checking all mathematical conditions first. This is, dare I say, a "philosophical" difference I've generally observed between physicists and mathematicians.

 

[CrysPhys]

OP: You've mentioned that your wife will be supportive (both spiritually and financially). Are there kids in the picture, either now or planned for your stint in grad school? That will have (or should have) a strong impact on your decision.

 

[CaptainHindsight]

OP: You've mentioned that your wife will be supportive (both spiritually and financially). Are there kids in the picture, either now or planned for your stint in grad school? That will have (or should have) a strong impact on your decision.

We currently have a toddler and are planning on one more. The first would be in school by the time I'd start and the second not far behind. Right now we live in a very low cost-of-living area, so daycare is very affordable. We've also had the benefit of nannying from the mother-in-law prior to that which has enabled us to both be working. Covid may be biasing my experience, but I get to spend plenty of quality time with my boy within this framework. If I equate the PhD with a 9-5 job, then it should workout based on my current, though possibly biased, experience. Note, I'd probably be doing theory so lab time won't be an issue.

I don't know the pros/cons of doing the PhD while the kids are school-age vs high-schoolers (or vs outta the hose) so I'd love to see some insights. I'm pretty experienced with sitting in on classes (usually the profs let me sit exams (and homework if I pay the grader an additional fee)). An alternative to my proposed time frame could very well be to take/sit-in a class each semester, build physics knowledge and relationships, and then do the PhD while they are a little older.

To mpresic3 and phyzguy, would you be willing to share some of your story? Motivation? Were you theory or experimental? Afterwards did you work in industry, academics, or just do it independently?

 

[mpresic3]

You sound like you are happily married with a family. I had neither, an immediate family nor was I married. In your situation, I do not think I would ever have gone back to school. My situation was different. A Ph D was not a goal when I started out. In my first college lecture, I did not even know what a PhD was. I was the first generation in my family to even go to college. However, looking back at it, my interest in physics started when I was 7 years old, and there are many stories I can tell from early childhood, that made my career inevitable.

I do not know your situation but before I went back to school, I still had a lifetime of taking classes. I do not think in the 30 years between my first graduate study and my second graduate study, more than 2 years went by between taking classes in math, physics, or engineering.

I had interests beside academic ones, but they did not pan out I think if I had more encouragement in these areas, I would be happier today to lead a more conventional lifestyle, similar to the one you have. I really think it is possible that embarking on the pursuit might require you to compromise your lifestyle. The age might not matter to the admission committee, but:

1. Say you are a 22 year old student who has been in college all their life. Your immediate family is parents and siblings. They are all still young enoughfor you to believe they will be around forever. You can move your belongings in one carload, (if that). You have few connections, and you have the rest of your life to make new friends. You have not had a career, and little life experience.

2. You are older, and have family, friends, and a career. You have possessions and responsibilities. You have comforts that may be harder to forgo. This is a different situation than above entirely.

Unless you cannot live without it, and would pursue physics anyway, the way Captain Ahab, pursued the whale, I think anyone would be happier to study physics in spare time with a sense of wonder that I had earlier on. You have responsibilities and connections that I wish I could treasure.

You probably wanted a pep talk, and encouragement to do what I did, but I do not think I should give advise to anyone who is happier than I am. Best of Luck. Maybe phyzguy can be more enthusiastic.

 

[mpresic3]

PS. You asked about my situation. I worked for an organization that encouraged me to take further graduate study. The paid for one course every year I worked there. In the 80's, they even transported professors in from a nearby university to teach graduate physics, math, or engineering to their workers. I do not think these opportunities are as available today. These courses kept me current and sharp, so that when I had to take the GRE's again, I could do better than the first time. Even then I took the GRE's a total of 4 or 5 times. The last two times only a month apart (same score within 10 points). (The universities generally gave me credit for some of these courses up to some limit, called course waivers)

I tried applying to grad schools several times throughout my career. I never got flat-out rejected from all the schools I applied to in any particular year, but some times, I would get a pay raise or promotion, and I passed up on the acceptance. Eventually, I decided it was now or never. The last time where I was successful it was the only University I applied to, so I was lucky I was accepted.

I had a cousin, a month younger who suffered a heart attack, and I realized, maybe I would regret not "following my dream". No family, and I was not dating anybody at the time. I was enjoying my work, and physical fitness regimen, but I wanted adventure, so I packed up and moved 1600 miles after being accepted at a University. I felt this was the last time I would be so free as to do this adventure in an area of the country, I felt was most beautiful. I had never taken a risk like this before. I had dropped out of a graduate program earlier, even after passing my doctoral qualifying exams, and investing four years. I felt the odds of completing the program was 50-50. (It was interesting that I had two friends who started graduate study at that University, but were required to leave after the first year.)

I studied theory, not experiment, but I would have been open to experiment. I had worked unsuccessfully in experimental labs before with one exception. I enjoyed and I was successful in one summer in a biophysics lab. I think looking back, I could have been happy doing biophysics, but in my early days, I really wanted to do modern physics involving quantum mechanics.

 

[CrysPhys]

If I equate the PhD with a 9-5 job, then it should workout based on my current, though possibly biased, experience. Note, I'd probably be doing theory so lab time won't be an issue.

You will likely find that a PhD program is far more consuming than a Mon - Fri, 9 - 5 job.