Alexander paper - CP and lambda

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  • #31
wolram said:
I have read a little on high energy phys, some papers do mention LQG but
i could only understand parts of them, i hope this is a marriage made in
heaven, LQGQCD or QCDLQG?

wolram, it seems to me quite a recent initiative with no indication whether or not it will eventually work out (but that is the most exciting part of a relationship anyway, probably)

we both could learn by going over Ohwilleke post #20 again---he spells it out with more detail and it is really his observation

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=530777&postcount=20


One point to clarify, I guess. LQG since its very beginning has looked like a non-abelian gauge theory, or like a generalized Yang-Mills theory with SU(2) standing in for U(1). My understanding is that this was thanks to the Ashtekar-Sen formulation in 1986 which focused on the connection (rather than the metric). So when Rovelli and Smolin worked out LQG in the early 1990s they were consciously using the gauge theory that was fashionable in particle physics (for example QCD) as a model.

I think what Ohwilleke was talking about in the post I mentioned is not the OLD connection by analogy, but something new that is currently in progress.
 
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  • #32
This paper on the connection between QCD and gravity is particularly notable in my mind:

Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 05:42:53 GMT (7kb)

Non-Abelian Effects in Gravitation
Authors: A. Deur
Comments: 3 pages, no figure

The non-abelian symmetry of a lagrangian invalidates the principle of superposition for the field described by this lagrangian. A consequence in QCD is that non-linear effects occur, resulting in the quark-quark linear potential that explains the quark confinement, the quarkonia spectra or the Regge trajectories. Following a parallel between QCD and gravitation, we suggest that these non-linear effects should create an additional logarithmic potential in the classical Newtonian description of gravity. The modified potential may account for the rotation curve of galaxies and other problems, without requiring dark matter.

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/?0309474

Any time you see a mention of Yang-Mills in a LQG paper, you are seeing a reference to a core theory of QCD. This paper (http://www.claymath.org/millennium/Yang-Mills_Theory/Official_Problem_Description.pdf 15 page pdf) lays out the connection nicely. This Wikipedia article: http://wikipedia.findthelinks.com/mi/Millennium_Prize_Problems.html explains that progress related to Yang-Mills has been identified as one of the top ten issues in mathematics right now and that solving related problems will earn you $1,000,000. The connection between Yang-Mills and QCD is also discussed in this Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattice_field_theory

It turns out that Yang-Mills theory is important in most quantum gravity schemes.

Page 15 of Lee Smolin's exhaustive review of the state of the field found here: http://search.arxiv.org:8081/paper.jsp?p=hep-th/0303185&qid=1113796894988-1959050228 (link is to the abstract, but you can click through to the full text)

notes that both String Theory and LQG model gravity as non-abelian gauge theories. This ties in directly to the paper I note above, and Smolin also, a page or two later, explains that Yang-Mills is a core assumption of string theory approaches to quantum gravity.

The abstract of Smolin's paper is as follows:

Date (v1): Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:32:29 GMT (88kb)
Date (revised v2): Fri, 11 Apr 2003 02:53:05 GMT (94kb)

How far are we from the quantum theory of gravity?
Authors: Lee Smolin
Comments: 84pages, one figure. Comments welcome. This is a review and it will be updated from time to time

An assessment is offered of the progress that the major approaches to quantum gravity have made towards the goal of constructing a complete and satisfactory theory. The emphasis is on loop quantum gravity and string theory, although other approaches are discussed, including dynamical triangulation models (euclidean and lorentzian) regge calculus models, causal sets, twistor theory, non-commutative geometry and models based on analogies to condensed matter systems. We proceed by listing the questions the theories are expected to be able to answer. We then compile two lists: the first details the actual results so far achieved in each theory, while the second lists conjectures which remain open. By comparing them we can evaluate how far each theory has progressed, and what must still be done before each theory can be considered a satisfactory quantum theory of gravity. We find there has been impressive recent progress on several fronts. At the same time, important issues about loop quantum gravity are so far unresolved, as are key conjectures of string theory. However, there is a reasonable expectation that experimental tests of lorentz invariance at Planck scales may in the near future make it possible to rule out one or more candidate quantum theories of gravity.

Again, just to show that the connection is pretty fundamental in the minds of the main LQG folks, here is a link where John Baez is talking about Yang-Mills theory in connection with quantum gravity (http://www.lns.cornell.edu/spr/2001-07/msg0033863.html), even though the discussion itself is pretty technical.

Wikipedia is a good jumping off point for getting to understand QCD. The main entry on QCD is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_chromodynamics
 
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  • #34
From the perspective of a totaly non scientist this theory seems to
boil down to three controversial points.

! does the Higgs field exist
2 does the Axion exist
3 is there a Mass gap

There seems to be plenty of discussion for and against all three, as i am
not at any seat of learning may be my picture is fuzzy, so how far up
the theoretical tree of reality are these three?
 
  • #35
Hi ohwilleke,

I think in your post #20 here, which is what caught my attention, that by "larger program" you had something else in mind besides the fact that LQG was constructed (circa 1990) to be a non-abelian gauge theory.

ohwilleke said:
...The single most important thing to understand about this paper is that it is part of a larger program of theoretical research to unify QCD and a loop quantum gravity verson of quantum gravity in much the same way that the electro-magnetic force and the weak force have been unified already...

But in your post #32 of yesterday evening you cite Smolin's 2003 survey "How far are we from the quantum theory of gravity" to illustrate.

LQG has always been formally analogous to other generalized Yang-Mills theories and I suppose Ashtekar had the analogy in mind in 1986 when he formulated GR with the connection as variable. Probably Rovelli and Smolin had the analogy very clearly in mind in the early 1990s when they first constructed LQG using Ashtekar variables.

Perhaps, now that you mention it, I can see this as the start of "a larger program to unify QCD and LQG".

But in the past I have tended rather to take the mathematical analogy for granted. Although there was a formal similarity, it did not seem to have led to an actual unified treatment of matter and spacetime geometry.

As I saw it, the matter was treated as a gauge field theory (on the one hand, and on the other) the geometry was treated similarly, but that formal similarity didnt actually unify the two. though it be wished devoutly that it would.

What I would like you to try to delineate if you can is what you see that's new.
What is going on this year that brings the goal closer of unifying matter with quantum spacetime geometry?
Can you relate your vision of a larger program to, for instance, the
paper by Freidel and Starodubtsev (which Stephon Alexander cites IIRC and which has John Baez so excited), or to some other recent work?

I'd be interested to have a better idea of how you see things.
 
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  • #36
The paper you are referring to is: http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0501191

Date (v1): Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:29:34 GMT (18kb)
Date (revised v2): Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:07:06 GMT (18kb)

Quantum gravity in terms of topological observables
Authors: Laurent Freidel, Artem Starodubtsev
Comments: 19 pages

We recast the action principle of four dimensional General Relativity so that it becomes amenable for perturbation theory which doesn't break general covariance. The coupling constant becomes dimensionless (G_{Newton} \Lambda) and extremely small 10^{-120}. We give an expression for the generating functional of perturbation theory. We show that the partition function of quantum General Relativity can be expressed as an expectation value of a certain topologically invariant observable. This sets up a framework in which quantum gravity can be studied perturbatively using the techniques of topological quantum field theory.

In my view what has been happening, and given that we're only in April, I'm really looking at the past couple of years into 2003, is that LQG is leaving the toy model stage and becoming a genuine theory of gravity about which one can draw conclusions.

Y-M in 2D just doesn't cut it for all but the diehards. But, in Alexander's paper, you have him actually presenting a pretty well full fledged set of equations that can operate in the four dimensional reals and drawing conclusions from it. Freidel likewise in looking at LQG is putting together a formulation that you can actually do something with and making real predictions. Deur, who I cite above for a brief paper (and he hasn't published anything else) starts to draw some conclusion, in general, about how any non-abelian gauge theory of gravity is going to differ from conventional GR in the real world.

The paper you cited a few weeks ago about the rank 2 gravitational tensor S in quantum gravity not being identical to the corrosponding one in GR does the same thing. Likewise, the slightly older paper which made the point that SF naturally leads to an emergent 4D without putting it in by hand is a big deal. These theories are starting to be real theories that be used to draw conclusions, instead of mere works in process from which we can make vague hunches.

As LQG has "gone real" the analogies to QCD have grown a lot more relevant. It is one thing to look at a generalized Y-M in 2D or some such. But, when your gravity equations and your QCD equations start to look similar and this allows you to use real empirical QCD experience to back up your analytical judgment about what LQG equations say, you have started to jump the shark. Also, the more similar gravity begins to look to QCD, and Alexander's paper's theta notation really brings the parallel to a new level of specificity, the most you are inclined to speculate that they aren't just similar or roughly analogous, but are part of the same thing.

Now, it isn't obvious to me that QCD relies very heavily a preferred frame or any other non-GR features, even if, more out of laziness than anything else, non-GR elements may not be throughly stamped out. QCD involves such local phenomena in any case that it seems as if it would take a lot of local distortion in spacetime for GR geometrical issues to be very relevant to QCD.

Mass is a bigger issue. Y-M doesn't like mass. Hence, the call for the Higgs. As you are no doubt aware, the bulk of Baez's "fundamental constants" are Higgs related. And, of course, any theory of gravity is fundamentally about mass. I don't have a lot of confidence that LHC is going to find a Higgs boson, although I'd love to be proven wrong. At any rate, I do think that the whole issue of mass is pretty much up in the air until experiment catches up in the form of LHC that either say that there is a Higgs boson that fits or that somebody got it wrong.

Now, of course, you know that I'm a big MOND fan, and I think that the cool part of developments like those of Alexander's paper and Deur's and the paper that says that while quantum gravity implies a rank 2 tensor for gravity that it does not imply the one in GR, is that a MOND-TeVeS type theory which is theoretically motivated by falling naturally out of a quantum gravity equation makes the case for a sensible universe without dark matter, without dark energy, without lots of extra dimensions, etc. much more plausible. Indeed, it would be a wonderful gap filler. From the empirical evidence, you get a toy model theory with the constants filled in, and from the theory, you get an exact formula theory with no constants, and I think you can then reconcile the two to have not just a toy model, but a theoretically well motivated exact formulation whose constants are well measured empirically.

Now, this is still fuzzy about how this is all going to knit together and unify, i.e. how the QCD is going to become the flip side of gravity, instead of just similar to it. But, basically, a paper like Alexander's makes the analogy start to get sufficiently tight that my intuition is saying, maybe it can be knit a bit tighter. But, I think that you don't really get to that level until you get more solid in the "All the Constants from . . . " line of analysis and connect the plausible empirical formulas to some sort of theoretical foundation that tells you more about what the particles of SM really are.

(Apologizes for being lazy and leaving out of lot of links in this post to the relevant papers and sites, I do have a day job).
 
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  • #37
ohwilleke said:
...

Now, this is still fuzzy about how this is all going to knit together and unify, i.e. how the QCD is going to become the flip side of gravity, instead of just similar to it. But, basically, a paper like Alexander's makes the analogy start to get sufficiently tight ...

...(Apologizes for... leaving out of lot of links in this post to the relevant papers..)

(no problem, I do that myself as you have noticed. :smile:)

this is a good way to visualize it. I like the way you put it:
"...all going to knit together and unify, i.e. how the QCD is going to become the flip side of gravity, instead of just similar to it."

I hope you are right.

Since Alexander's, and also Freidel Starodubtsev's, are basically papers on the growing edge of LQG, what you say about the analogy getting sufficiently tight to prompt intuitions of merger is actually saying something to me about LQG in specific, not merely gravity in the abstract. It suggests that LQG (already with some formal similarity to QCD) or something rather like LQG might turn out to be the flip side of the quantum theory of matter.
 
  • #38
The whole quantum theory of matter thing, for which the graviton and Higgs are both called for, is a puzzle. The equivalence of inertia mass and gravitational mass is so fundamental (and so natural in GR) that it seems odd to have one particle to describe one and another to describe the other (Higgs for inertia and graviton for gravity, of course), with the same "mass" coupling constant. Also, why is it that both of the most widely believed to exist, yet undiscovered particles in QM both couple with mass and would seem to be ubiquitous? And, if the Higgs boson exists, does it follow that it is a WIMP that explains dark matter? Why would you get an empirical prediction of a missing dark matter halo instead of a missing uniform scalar field then?

You could get around that if gravity wasn't a force at all, but was purely geometric as in GR. But, and correct me if I am wrong, both LQG and String Theory seem to call for a graviton, although the LQG approach obvious gives more due regard to the geometric aspects.
 
  • #39
I like Ohwilleke
One that gives the best unbiased opinion, even though the GP may not
be able to follow all of this, it comes down to what is known, unknown
or just iffy, thank you Ohwilleke
 
  • #40
wolram said:
I like Ohwilleke
One that gives the best unbiased opinion, even though the GP may not
be able to follow all of this, it comes down to what is known, unknown
or just iffy, thank you Ohwilleke

I concur with wolram's judgment :smile:
 

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