Algebraic proof of double negation inclusion?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the logical implications of double negation in the context of vector spaces and propositions. Participants explore the validity of certain logical statements and the definitions of sets versus propositions, particularly in relation to the axiom of choice and the nature of truth values.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes a vector space-based proof for the assertion that the double negation of a value implies the original value, specifically in the context of logical values being either 0 or 1.
  • Another participant challenges the definition of negation, arguing that if A is defined as "the sky is red," then its negation ~A should be "the sky is not red," and additional meanings cannot be arbitrarily assigned.
  • A different participant emphasizes the distinction between elements of sets and the sets themselves, arguing that the negation cannot be equated with arbitrary choices like "the sky is green."
  • Another contribution clarifies the need for different notation when discussing propositions versus sets, highlighting the importance of distinguishing between statements that have truth values and sets that do not.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the interpretation of negation and the relationship between sets and propositions. There is no consensus on the validity of the initial claim or the implications of the axiom of choice in this context.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in definitions and the need for clarity in the use of notation when discussing logical propositions versus set theory. The discussion remains focused on conceptual distinctions without resolving the underlying logical assertions.

jk22
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I search for a vector space based proof of the following :

The logic on values implies ~~v(A)=v(A)

If the value of A is v(A)##\in\{0,1\}## then it is simply ##1-(1-v(A))=v(A)##

But if we suppose A="the sky is red"
Then as on operator acting on A, ~A is not defined since for example ~A="the sky is not red" is a set in which by using the axiom of choice we could choose ~A="the sky is green" and then ~~A="the sky is not green" which does not imply that the sky is red as in the starting point.

So we have A##\subset##~~A.

Where could the proof of this based on orthogonal spaces be found ? Does it work only for dimension 4 and higher ?
 
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jk22 said:
Then as on operator acting on A, ~A is not defined since for example ~A="the sky is not red" is a set in which by using the axiom of choice we could choose ~A="the sky is green" and then ~~A="the sky is not green"
This doesn't make sense, logically. If A is defined as A = "the sky is red," then ~A is the negation of that sentence, which as you said, is "the sky is not red."

I don't see how it could possibly be valid to choose a meaning for that the last sentence of "the sky is green." Further, given the sentence A, there are only two possible choices: that it is true or that it is false. You can't attach additional meaning to the sentence "the sky is not red."
 
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jk22 said:
~A="the sky is not red" is a set in which by using the axiom of choice we could choose ~A="the sky is green"
An element of a set (or a subset of a set) is not the same as the set. This should be clear in this sentence, because obviously "the sky is not red" and "the sky is green" are not the same, they cannot both be ~A.
 
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jk22 said:
But if we suppose A="the sky is red"

by using the axiom of choice we could choose ~A="the sky is green"

You are confusing sets with propositions about sets. If you use "A" to denote the set of things that are red then you need different notation to denote the proposition "the sky is an element of the set A". If you wish to use "A" to denote the proposition "The sky is red" then the you need different notation to indicate "the set of things that are red".

The intuitive idea that sets are intimately related to propositions is correct. For example the statement about sets "A is a subset of B" is defined to be the statement: "For each element x, if x is an member of A then x is a member of B". As another example, the set "the complement of set A" can be defined by the proposition "For each element x, x is a member of the complement of A if and only if x is not an element of A".

Note that those examples involve "propositonal functions" using the variable "x" and the "quantifier "for each" that turns the propositional functions into propositions. We can also formulate examples using the quantifier "there exists". We an also formulate examples without using a variable, such as "The sky on Mars is green", where "The sky on Mars" is understood to be a single specific element.

You must make a distinction between propositions like "The sky on Mars is green" versus sets such as "The set of things that are not red". A proposition such as "The sky on Mars is green" is a statement so it has a "truth value " (True or False). A set such as "The set of things that are not red" isn't a statement. In terms of grammar, it is a noun. ( A set may be the empty set, but we don't say the empty set has the property of being "False".)
 
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