Archimedes' Death Ray: Myth or Reality?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the historical account of Archimedes' purported invention of a "death ray" during the siege of Syracuse in 212 BC, exploring whether it could realistically have been constructed and used to ignite Roman warships. Participants examine various experiments and theories related to this concept, including historical accounts, modern recreations, and the feasibility of using reflective surfaces to focus sunlight.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Historical

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants reference historical accounts of Archimedes using a burning glass to set ships on fire, noting that attempts to recreate this have yielded mixed results.
  • A participant mentions a 1973 experiment by Ioannis Sakkas, which reportedly succeeded in igniting a mock ship using 70 mirrors, suggesting that it might be feasible under certain conditions.
  • Others argue that focusing sunlight on a moving target, such as a ship, would be challenging and may not have been practical during warfare.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the feasibility of the death ray, citing the MythBusters' failure to replicate the effect and suggesting that Greek fire would have been a more effective weapon.
  • There are discussions about the potential for misconceptions surrounding the effectiveness of the death ray, with some suggesting that any success could have been perceived as a miraculous event rather than a reliable weapon.
  • One participant shares a personal anecdote about igniting materials using a telescope, implying that it could be possible under controlled conditions.
  • Concerns are raised regarding the differences in materials (e.g., paper versus wood) and the implications for igniting a ship compared to smaller objects.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the feasibility of Archimedes' death ray. While some believe it could work under specific conditions, others maintain that it is likely a myth or impractical in a real-world scenario.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on historical accounts, the variability of experimental conditions, and the ambiguity surrounding the effectiveness of ancient technologies compared to modern methods.

Ivan Seeking
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Ancient Greek and Roman historians recorded that during the siege of Syracuse in 212 BC, Archimedes (a notably smart person) constructed a burning glass to set the Roman warships, anchored within bow and arrow range, afire.

The story has been much debated and a number of attempts to recreate it have been made over the ages. While some attempts have apparently been successful, the death ray is oft dismissed as myth.

TV's MythBusters were not able to replicate the feat and “busted” the myth.

Intrigued by the idea and an intuitive belief that it could work, MIT's 2.009ers decided to apply the early product development ‘sketch or soft modeling’ process to the problem. [continued]
http://web.mit.edu/2.009/www/experiments/deathray/10_ArchimedesResult.html
 
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I think it would work, from wiki,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes

A test of the Archimedes heat ray was carried out in 1973 by the Greek scientist Ioannis Sakkas. The experiment took place at the Skaramagas naval base outside Athens. On this occasion 70 mirrors were used, each with a copper coating and a size of around five by three feet (1.5 by 1 m). The mirrors were pointed at a plywood mock-up of a Roman warship at a distance of around 160 feet (50 m). When the mirrors were focused accurately, the ship burst into flames within a few seconds. The plywood ship had a coating of tar paint, which may have aided combustion.[31
 
wonderful. i think it would be hard to focus when the "roman ship" is far away, and there may be dispersion of the light by particles in air.:wink:
 
As said they did this on Mythbusters, and with the Greek technology it was impossible, with parabolic silvered/modern mirrors and the optimal set up, something the Greeks didn't have, then it was difficult, possible but impractical in a war setting.

http://web.mit.edu/2.009/www/experiments/deathray/10_Mythbusters.html

Just to show a link to compliment the OP.

I don't think it was feasible.

Unless a ship was stationary all the time, I can't see how this would work. And Greek fire would be far more effective anyway, a sort of ancient Napalm. Or jelly like "naptha"/oil based product.

Sounds like wartime propaganda to me. :smile:

wiki said:
The origin of the word Naphtha is unclear. It is an Ancient Greek word that was used to refer to any sort of petroleum or pitch. The Greeks themselves borrowed the word from the Old Persian words nafata, naft or neft, which were used to describe bubbling oil. Naphtha may also have been derived from the name of the Vedic Hindu and Avestic god Apam Napat, a form of Agni, or fire god.

Naphtha is the root of the words naphthalene and napalm, which is derived from naphtha by mixing under controlled conditions with aluminium salts of palmitic acid (a type of soap).

In older usage, naphtha simply meant crude oil, but this usage is now obscure.
 
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Myth busters is good but not exhaustive, just one fluke success would be enough to terrify
an unknowing people.
 
wolram said:
Myth busters is good but not exhaustive, just one fluke success would be enough to terrify
an unknowing people.

True combined with flinging naptha at them, they may have got the wrong end of the stick and believed the fires came from some ray of light being focussed on the vessel. All speculation but I doubt you could do it with copper mirrors under most circumstances, unless as you say it was a fluke.

Mind you the Greeks beat off the entire Persian task force at Platea with nothing but their reflective shields, at least according to the arch myth monger Herodotus and his histories, they used their bright shields to blind the Persians, so you can see where the myths come from.

Although he was right about one thing ~196 Greeks (forget exact figures) did in fact die in the initial battles they uncovered a grave that attests to this. But it was a bit more complicated than Herodotus made out.
 
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I think it would be possible. Once I had an astronomy class where we set stuff on fire using a telescope with a 10 inch primary mirror.
 
brett812718 said:
I think it would be possible. Once I had an astronomy class where we set stuff on fire using a telescope with a 10 inch primary mirror.

Was the person running at 0-20 knots intermittently with the object that was set on fire?
 
Schrödinger's Dog said:
Was the person running at 0-20 knots intermittently with the object that was set on fire?

no, but it only took less than a second to light a piece of paper on fire.
 
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brett812718 said:
no, but it only took less than a second to light a piece of paper on fire.

That's paper not wood, and even with paper if it was moving it would be harder to set it on fire. I think it's a myth personally.