News Are americans more ignorant than europeans?

[verdigris]

I have heard that many americans do not know what the capital cities of european countries are. But I don't know what the capital cities of most american states are and given that some of these states are bigger than european countries I think I should ask:are americans any more ignorant than europeans?

 

[berkeman]

I don't consider lack of detailed geography knowledge as a sign of "ignorance". That's what books and the Internet are for -- 10 seconds to find out a capitol name when needed. I save my memorization space for things that I use daily. I doubt you would consider me ignorant if you met me and worked with me.

 

[Gokul43201]

I think the "ignorance" the OP is talking about is in the context of a knowledge of socio-political conditions in parts of the world outside one's own neighborhood.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Is this a question about median or average expectations, or the low end of the intellectual spectrum, or the intelligentsia?

 

[denverdoc]

I don't know that americans are dumber, but certainly more ignorant. I think that has been measured a million times over. Part of the reason I suspect is due to the relative isolationism--in europe you travel 2000 miles you may have been thru 4 or 5 countries. In the US that would take you from LAX to Ohare. And on the other end the same McConalds and Starbucks. Its unfortunately not only about geography, but science and math. We are dumb and getting dumber.

 

[edward]

In 2002 National Geographic did a survey among 18 to 24 year olds.
At that time only 13% of the Americans could find Iraq on a map. I bet they can find it now.

The survey asked 56 geographic and current events questions of young people in nine countries and scored the results with traditional grades.

The surveyed Americans got a "D," with an average of 23 correct answers. Mexico ranked last with an average score of 21, just three points from a failing grade.

Topping the scoring was Sweden, with an average of 40, followed by Germany and Italy, each with 38. None of the countries got an "A," which required average scores of 42 correct answers or better on the 56 questions.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/11/20/geography.quiz/

 

[denverdoc]

in fairness they should have asked questions about fashion designers, rock groups, new cars. and the taco bell menu. Would have smoked the godless miscreants.

 

[Ki Man]

The masses of ignorant people are being supported on the shoulders of great thinkers and big businessmen. if we loose one of those men the rest are going to fall off

 

[verdigris]

Ki Man:
"The masses of ignorant people are being supported on the shoulders of great thinkers and big businessmen. if we loose one of those men the rest are going to fall off"

I think this is right because there seems to be a lack of people with certain skills now and it is going to be difficult to replace the older generation when they retire.Many people don't want to study difficult subjects
that advance society and too many people are studying subjects just because they will get high income.

 

[Art]

I don't know that americans are dumber, but certainly more ignorant. I think that has been measured a million times over. Part of the reason I suspect is due to the relative isolationism--in europe you travel 2000 miles you may have been thru 4 or 5 countries. In the US that would take you from LAX to Ohare. And on the other end the same McConalds and Starbucks.

I agree the sheer size and population of the US accounts for it's relative isolationism and introspection.

Watching the news in LA I found most of the TV news covered events in California and then when it went to "Now for the rest of the news" it went to New York.

Here in Ireland with a small land area and a population of only 4 million by necessity the news spends more time on international items simply because there are insufficient local items of interest to fill the news slot as Mrs Murphy's dog is missing is unlikely to grip the audience

Another aspect is the power ratio. The more powerful a country is the less bothered it's citizens are in what other countries think of them and so for example I would think the average Iranian citizen is extremely interested in anything the US says about them to glean some insight as to whether an attack is coming (newsworthy) whereas the average US citizen secure behind their military might has no such worries and so is correspondingly less interested in whatever emanates from Iran (not newsworthy).

So I wouldn't say Americans are dumber than their international counterparts because they are less familiar with world geography, it is just their focus is different.

 

[denverdoc]

i'll take my chances. Could you name a few of these indispensable Atlases?

 

[Gokul43201]

In 2002 National Geographic did a survey among 18 to 24 year olds.
At that time only 13% of the Americans could find Iraq on a map. I bet they can find it now.

That number is now up to 37%.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/roper2006/findings.html

 

[StuMyers]

I agree the sheer size and population of the US accounts for it's relative isolationism and introspection.

Watching the news in LA I found most of the TV news covered events in California and then when it went to "Now for the rest of the news" it went to New York.

Here in Ireland with a small land area and a population of only 4 million by necessity the news spends more time on international items simply because there are insufficient local items of interest to fill the news slot as Mrs Murphy's dog is missing is unlikely to grip the audience

Another aspect is the power ratio. The more powerful a country is the less bothered it's citizens are in what other countries think of them and so for example I would think the average Iranian citizen is extremely interested in anything the US says about them to glean some insight as to whether an attack is coming (newsworthy) whereas the average US citizen secure behind their military might has no such worries and so is correspondingly less interested in whatever emanates from Iran (not newsworthy).

So I wouldn't say Americans are dumber than their international counterparts because they are less familiar with world geography, it is just their focus is different.

I think you nailed it. We in planet America just don't care about the rest of the world these days, because we don't think we need to.

Also though, I think it's fair to say that statistical numbers of ignorance are likely to be bady skewed by extrema. We have legions of horribly ignorant folks in the backwoods and inner cities. If you normalize for them in both europe and america, I'd guess discrepancies would largley disappear.

 

[drankin]

Humans are intelligent in the the things required for their environment. It doesn't matter what part of the world they reside. The OP is meant to stir up contention.

Do I care what the capital of some distant country is that I will never visit or deal with? No, but my neighbor might care even though he also will never visit or deal with it. I'm ignorant in that respect but I've got more important things to concern myself with.

 

[Anttech]

That number is now up to 37%.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/roper2006/findings.html

From the link:

Half of young Americans can't find New York on a map.

I think that's is worse than not knowing where Iraq is. From my experience History and Geography arent the strong point of the average American. All present company / thread subscribers excluded obviously

 

[Gokul43201]

Do I care what the capital of some distant country is that I will never visit or deal with?

...some distant country that you think you will never visit or deal with...

We went to war with Iraq when the President didn't know who the Sunni and Shia were. While this may not be a part of the problem, it is symptomatic of it. The lack of knowledge of Middle Eastern culture may be a large part of the reason that the US force is being thought of as occupiers rather than liberators.

 

[StuMyers]

We went to war with Iraq when the President didn't know who the Sunni and Shia were.

I really hope that's urban legend. I'm no Bush fan, but I learned that in 9th grade. Seriously, that's not even funny.

 

[drankin]

...some distant country that you think you will never visit or deal with...

We went to war with Iraq when the President didn't know who the Sunni and Shia were. While this may not be a part of the problem, it is symptomatic of it. The lack of knowledge of Middle Eastern culture may be a large part of the reason that the US force is being thought of as occupiers rather than liberators.

Hell if I'm going to learn the capital of every country in the world just in case one day I might visit or do business with them. There is plenty of other more interesting trivia to learn out there.

 

[Mallignamius]

From the link:

I think that's is worse than not knowing where Iraq is. From my experience History and Geography arent the strong point of the average American. All present company / thread subscribers excluded obviously

I am left to wonder how that measures up against common knowledge of youth in other countries. I skimmed through the report and I didn't find a comparison. Shouldn't the study have included youth from other countries? And shouldn't it have included comparison to similar reports from decades ago? (Assuming such studies were done back then.)

From the report:
"This study was specifically designed to test the knowledge and abilities of 18- to 24-year-olds."

I think this should read, "This study was specifically designed to test the knowledge and abilities of 18- to 24-year-old Americans."

 

[drankin]

I am left to wonder how that measures up against common knowledge of youth in other countries. I skimmed through the report and I didn't find a comparison. Shouldn't the study have included youth from other countries? And shouldn't it have included comparison to similar reports from decades ago? (Assuming such studies were done back then.)

From the report:
"This study was specifically designed to test the knowledge and abilities of 18- to 24-year-olds."

I think this should read, "This study was specifically designed to test the knowledge and abilities of 18- to 24-year-old Americans."

Good point. What was the motivation of the study?

 

[Anttech]

I am left to wonder how that measures up against common knowledge of youth in other countries. I skimmed through the report and I didn't find a comparison. Shouldn't the study have included youth from other countries? And shouldn't it have included comparison to similar reports from decades ago? (Assuming such studies were done back then.)

From the report:
"This study was specifically designed to test the knowledge and abilities of 18- to 24-year-olds."

I think this should read, "This study was specifically designed to test the knowledge and abilities of 18- to 24-year-old Americans."

I don't understand what you are referring to. My comment on History and Geography or the 50% of youths don't know where New York is? I think if you were to ask Europeans that question they would be able to tell you where the largest city in their respective country is. As for the history and Geography part, that my perception, with no scientific research 100% my opinion and of course I could be entirely wrong or entirely right

 

[Mallignamius]

I would think the same of people in my country, U.S. But the poll shows otherwise. So I'm asking if there's an equivalent poll for other countries, especially since this topic is "are americans more ignorant than europeans?"

 

[drankin]

I don't understand what you are referring to. My comment on History and Geography or the 50% of youths don't know where New York is? I think if you were to ask Europeans that question they would be able to tell you where the largest city in their respective country is. As for the history and Geography part, that my perception, with no scientific research 100% my opinion and of course I could be entirely wrong or entirely right

Anttech simply does not like Americans and cannot resist the oportunity to put them in a bad light whenever possible.

 

[radou]

No offence to the creator, but the poll and the whole topic is idiotic.

 

[Mallignamius]

Anttech simply does not like Americans and cannot resist the oportunity to put them in a bad light whenever possible.

Well, I don't like anybody. I just don't have any studies to prove what I think of them.

 

[Anttech]

Anttech simply does not like Americans and cannot resist the oportunity to put them in a bad light whenever possible.

Ehh? Why do you say that?

You don't know me, or what I like or don't like. Your perception is what it is, but there is no backing for what you say, so kindly retract it and don't attempt to build a position around me which isn't *actually* my position! Why not ask me what I like rather than misunderstand and spread lies?

I don't like many things, but I would never say I don't like a nation its racist actually, and I am not a racist, its as bad as saying someone doesn't like Black people, or Mediterraneans, or purple people or whatever.

One thing I certainly don't like, (as many others dont) is someone attempting to put words in others mouths, or misrepresenting others, like *YOU* have just done to me!

Joke or not...

 

[drankin]

Ehh? Why do you say that?

You don't know me, or what I like or don't like. Your perception is what it is, but there is no backing for what you say, so kindly retract it and don't attempt to build a position around me which isn't *actually* my position! Why not ask me what I like rather than misunderstand and spread lies?

I don't like many things, but I would never say I don't like a nation its racist actually, and I am not a racist, its as bad as saying someone doesn't like Black people, or Mediterraneans, or purple people or whatever.

One thing I certainly don't like, (as many others dont) is someone attempting to put words in others mouths, or misrepresenting others, like *YOU* have just done to me!

Joke or not...

I don't think there is anything wrong with you not liking Americans. I don't see how that would make you a racist as Americans are made up of every race under the sun. You simply dislike our government, our laws, our leaders and our ideals. It's obvious in just about every one of your posts. And it is quite alright with me. I suppose you are offended by the word "hate". How about we just call it "dislike"? Basically, says the same thing just doesn't make you look like a "hater". Lighten up.

 

[Anttech]

I don't think there is anything wrong with you not liking Americans. I don't see how that would make you a racist as Americans are made up of every race under the sun. You simply dislike our government, our laws, our leaders and our ideals. It's obvious in just about every one of your posts. And it is quite alright with me. I suppose you are offended by the word "hate". How about we just call it "dislike"? Basically, says the same thing just doesn't make you look like a "hater". Lighten up.

I am light

But you are missing the point, I do not, not like Americans. Its an absurd thing to say. And for you to say that is a misrepresentation of me, and what I actually do not like. Just because I have political views which contradict yours, or your countries does not equate with me hating Americans.

You do understand that right?

 

[drankin]

I am light

But you are missing the point, I do not, not like Americans. Its an absurd thing to say. And for you to say that is a misrepresentation of me, and what I actually do not like. Just because I have political views which contradict yours, or your countries does not equate with me hating Americans.

You do understand that right?

Yes, you don't "hate", you passionately dislike. I understand.

 

[BobG]

I really hope that's urban legend. I'm no Bush fan, but I learned that in 9th grade. Seriously, that's not even funny.

It's more than just urban legend, but the source is an anectdote from a single person. The fact that the single person was a US ambassador lends some credibility to the claim, but the fact that it's a second hand account that John Galbraith heard from three Iraqi Americans drops the credibility a little. (http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Ambassador_claims_shortly_before_invasion_Bush_0804.html)

Prior to the invasion, Bush did use the term "Sunni" to describe a Pakistani group, which shows he'd at least heard the term. That's about the only reference Bush ever made to either Sunnis or Shiites and it doesn't provide much insight as to whether he understood that Sunnis were a branch of Muslims or not.

Even if he had no idea before becoming President, you would think the subject had come up in some kind of briefing, since the difference between Shiite Iran and Sunni Arab nations is a significant factor in Middle East affairs. So, I'm not sure the story is all that credible in a literal sense. I do find it very credible that he really didn't comprehend the differences, leading to a slight embellishment of the story. After all, would the average American comprehend the differences between Protestants and Catholics in the same way someone form Northern Ireland would?

 

[StuMyers]

Man, I hope this isn't true. What an embarassment if it is.

Galbraith reports that the three of them spent some time explaining to Bush that there are two different sects in Islam--to which the President allegedly responded, “I thought the Iraqis were Muslims!”

This is even worse than his alleged confusion of Switzerland and Sweeden.

 

[eaboujaoudeh]

looooooooooooooll...ok i don't think that all americans are stupid, anyway if americans were smart they would really disown bush, this guy is dumb seriously dumb. As for americans in general they are not stupid, they are ignorant to their surrounding because of lack of interest, and again this isn't a general rule, but it is more common in the U.S.A. as for the europeans they watch the same news as the americans so they have the same point of views nearly, especially in regard of the middle east, so they know nothing of why ppl here hate their political views, they just think we hate their gvrnmts because we are terroris and stop there. but the europeans in general long for knowledge more than the americans, and that helps them greatly in world affairs. propably that's why most ppl around the world would hate the americans but not the europeans.

 

[StuMyers]

I still suspect that we have lots of really ignorant people who skew the statistics. If you eliminate everybody with less than a 4-year college degree, I'd guess the statistics would look very different. I can't back that up of course... beyond looking at American colleges and universities, and comparing them to similar world institutions.

 

[eaboujaoudeh]

actually learning facilities in the US are really great...i was talking about the general public with all its constitutents.i mean take an example how many ppl in the USA would now were Mongolia would be? or even Iraq? George Bush propably still doesn't know were Iraq is...i've seen it once on Jay lenno i think were he goes around on streets asking ppl to point countries like korea and stuff like that, Europeans would know more on this subject, Lebanese ppl know every country, because whatever happpens anywhere in the world it either affects our internal politics in some weird way, or we are blamed for it :P

 

[StuMyers]

Don't put too much stock in what you see on Leno. People who know the correct answers aren't funny enough for TV.

 

[-Job-]

In Europe you have to learn a lot about many other countries' history in order to understand your own, so you are always more aware of other cultures.

But i would guess that a bigger percentage of people in the US have a high degree of specialization (good knowledge in a particular area) when compared to other countries.

 

[eaboujaoudeh]

i know that...it was just an example

 

[EL]

This is even worse than his alleged confusion of Switzerland and Sweeden.

Or of Switzerland and Sweden...

 

[eaboujaoudeh]

i wonder about the chances of him attacking iran instead of iraq.. :P

 

[Gokul43201]

I am left to wonder how that measures up against common knowledge of youth in other countries. I skimmed through the report and I didn't find a comparison. Shouldn't the study have included youth from other countries? And shouldn't it have included comparison to similar reports from decades ago? (Assuming such studies were done back then.)

From the 2002 geosurvey:

Americans ages 18 to 24 came in next to last among nine countries in the National Geographic-Roper 2002 Global Geographic Literacy Survey, which quizzed more than 3,000 young adults in Canada, France, Germany, Great Britain, Italy, Japan, Mexico, Sweden, and the United States. Top scorers were young adults in Sweden, Germany, and Italy.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/geosurvey/highlights.html

For question by question comparisons, start here:
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/geosurvey/templates/answer_1_1_1.html

 

[berkeman]

Yes, you don't "hate", you passionately dislike. I understand.

drankin -- let it go. One of the things we enforce here on the PF is "no personal attacks or insults". Please keep your discussion non-personal. I understand that this whole thread is a bit on the edge, but I'm inclined to keep it open as long as we don't get posters bickering with each other.

 

[Mallignamius]

From the 2002 geosurvey:



http://www.nationalgeographic.com/geosurvey/highlights.html

For question by question comparisons, start here:
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/geosurvey/templates/answer_1_1_1.html

Thanks for that.

Those were shamefully easy questions. I didn't miss any, so now I wonder why so many missed... so many. But then, I have a brother who doesn't believe in a south magnetic pole (which I reason is what his needle is actually pointing at), and thinks K2 is higher than Everest. I guess it boils down to what matters most in one's world.

 

[StuMyers]

Or of Switzerland and Sweden...

Typo, honest!

 

[EL]

Typo, honest!

Hmpf, you're just ignorant, American...

 

[denverdoc]

well the fact of the matter we aren't doing much better in math or science, the second link is only an abstract. Sorry my subscription ran out.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41278-2004Dec6.html
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/306/5703/1877a
http://www.usatoday.com/educate/mathscience/article-math2.htm