Are quarks as sub-atomic as it gets? necessarily?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the question of whether quarks are the smallest constituents of matter or if there could be sub-quark particles. Participants explore theoretical possibilities, historical context from scattering experiments, and various models related to quark substructure.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions if there is any theoretical basis for the existence of particles smaller than quarks, suggesting the possibility of sub-quark particles.
  • Another participant acknowledges the idea of substructure but points out the lack of experimental evidence and discusses the implications of mass and energy relationships for quarks.
  • A different participant references the history of scattering experiments, noting that while smaller particles have been discovered in the past, there have been no recent indications of further substructure beyond quarks.
  • One participant mentions the existence of theoretical papers on quark substructure, specifically referencing preons, while expressing skepticism about their validity.
  • Another participant expresses interest in the Rishon model, which is based on the preon concept, and provides links to relevant papers that outline this theory.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the existence of sub-quark particles. There are competing views regarding the plausibility of quark substructure, with some expressing skepticism and others advocating for specific theoretical models.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the limitations of current experimental evidence regarding quark substructure and the theoretical challenges associated with mass and energy relationships in particle physics.

thetexan
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is there anything that says there can't be anything smaller than a quark? Can a quark be divided into sub-quark particles...in theory
 
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Yes, one could think about a substructure, but
1) there are no experimental indications
2) something would have to be rather strange, b/c usually you get something like E ~ 1/L where E is the energy of the bound state and L is the typical length scale; b/c L is extremely small, energy E and Mass m = E ~ 1/L should be large; in reality quarks are nearly massless, so there would have to be some additional mechanism ruling out large quark masses (it cannot be spontaneous symmetry breaking + Goldstone mechanism b/c this always creates massless bosons whereas quarks are spin 1/2 fermions)
 
If you look at the history of scattering experiments, there has continually been a hint that there are smaller particles. Alpha particle scattering off a nucleus led us to discover that the nucleus is actually a very very tiny portion of the atom yet contains over 99% of it's mass. Electron scattering off of protons led us to discover that there was an even smaller particle, the quark. So far, there has not been any more hints to further substructure as far as I know. But who knows, we are always smashing things into each other at higher and higher energy levels! Maybe we'll get a surprise!
 
There are many theory papers on substructure for quarks. I don't believe them, but search on preons in arxiv.org or google and stand back.
 
I actually believe that the Rishon model is quite an interesting theory. It's based on the preon model, but has some differences which make it a lot more plausible.http://www.weizmann.ac.il/home/harari/files/Nuclear_PhysicsB_Vol204.pdf (1981 paper)
http://www.slac.stanford.edu/cgi-wrap/getdoc/slac-pub-2310.pdf (1979 paper)
 

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