Are the following 3 statements true and does the cantor-bernstein theorem follow

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the validity of three statements regarding injections and cardinalities of sets, and whether these statements can be used to prove the Cantor-Bernstein theorem. Participants explore the implications of these statements within the context of set theory and cardinality.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the three statements provided do not prove the Cantor-Bernstein theorem, emphasizing that statement 3 requires a nontrivial argument that has not been presented.
  • One participant identifies statement 3 as the Cantor-Schroeder-Bernstein theorem, explaining its implications regarding injections and bijections between sets.
  • Another participant expresses confusion about their reasoning, suggesting that the relationships between A and B imply equality, but acknowledges that this reasoning may not hold in the context of set theory.
  • Some participants clarify that the concept of "less than or equal to" in set theory, defined by the existence of injections, does not necessarily share the same properties as numerical comparisons.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally disagree on whether the initial statements can be used to prove the Cantor-Bernstein theorem. There is no consensus on the validity of the reasoning presented regarding the implications of the statements.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the definitions of cardinality and the properties of injections may not directly translate from numerical comparisons to set theory, indicating a need for careful consideration of these concepts.

Wiz14
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1.There exists an injection from A to B ⇔ A ≤ B
2.There exists an injection from B to A ⇔ B ≤ A
3.If A ≤ B and B ≤ A, then A = B

Does this prove the Cantor Bernstein theorem? Which says that if 1 and 2 then there exists a Bijection between A and B (A = B)

And if it does, why is there a different, longer proof for it?
 
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Wiz14 said:
1.There exists an injection from A to B ⇔ A ≤ B
2.There exists an injection from B to A ⇔ B ≤ A
3.If A ≤ B and B ≤ A, then A = B

Does this prove the Cantor Bernstein theorem?

No. 1) and 2) are definitions of ≤ and ≥ for cardinalities of sets. 3) is a nontrivial consequence for which you have provided no argument at all.
 
Statement 3 IS the Cantor-Schroeder-Berstein theorem: "If the cardinality of A is less than or equal to the cardinality of B, and the cardinality of B is less than or equal to the cardinality of A, then the cardinality of A is equal to the cardinality of B." You can also state it as "If there is an injection from A to B, and there is an injection from B to A, then there is a bijection from A to B." As Norweigan said, it requires a nontrivial argument to prove this theorem.

EDIT: See the easy-to-understand proof here.
 
Last edited:
lugita15 said:
Statement 3 IS the Cantor-Schroeder-Berstein theorem: "If the cardinality of A is less than or equal to the cardinality of B, and the cardinality of B is less than or equal to the cardinality of A, then the cardinality of A is equal to the cardinality of B." You can also state it as "If there is an injection from A to B, and there is an injection from B to A, then there is a bijection from A to B." As Norweigan said, it requires a nontrivial argument to prove this theorem.

EDIT: See the easy-to-understand proof here.

I am reading that proof now but where is the flaw in my reasoning?
A ≤B and B ≤ A is like saying A = B or A is strictly less than B and B is strictly less than A, which is a contradiction, so A must = B.
 
Wiz14 said:
I am reading that proof now but where is the flaw in my reasoning?
A ≤B and B ≤ A is like saying A = B or A is strictly less than B and B is strictly less than A, which is a contradiction, so A must = B.
If A and B were numbers, then yes it would be trivially true that if A≤B and B≤A then A would equal B. But A and B are sets, and what we mean by A≤B is that "there exists an injection from A to B". We don't know beforehand whether "less than or equal to" for sets, which has to do with existence of an injection, has the same properties as "less than or equal to" for numbers. We have to prove it. So you can't use your familiar properties of numbers, like the fact that two things can't be strictly less than each other.
 

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