Atoms, Black Holes: Solving 2 Problems with 1 Theory?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion explores the relationship between atomic physics and black holes, questioning whether black holes could be conceptualized as atoms or elements. It addresses the breakdown of physical laws at atomic and black hole scales, and the implications of such a relationship for understanding both phenomena.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the breakdown of physical laws at atomic levels and around black holes could indicate a relationship between the two.
  • Others argue that the laws of physics do not break down at atomic scales, asserting that atomic interactions are well understood and accurately predicted by existing theories.
  • One participant suggests that if matter in a black hole is compacted into infinite density, it could be analogous to an atomic core.
  • Another participant counters that black holes do not have infinite mass and that the conditions within them are vastly different from those of atomic nuclei, which consist of protons and neutrons in a bound state.
  • Concerns are raised about speculative reasoning regarding the nature of matter in black holes and its comparison to atomic structures.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement on the nature of physical laws at atomic and black hole scales, with some asserting a relationship between the two concepts while others firmly reject this idea. The discussion remains unresolved, with competing views on the validity of the proposed connections.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the complexity of defining atomic and black hole properties, as well as the speculative nature of comparing these two vastly different scales of matter. The discussion highlights the challenges in applying mathematical frameworks to both atomic and black hole physics.

tony169
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TL;DR
Are black holes atoms?
The laws of physics breaks down at an atomic level, it also breaks down around black holes.

could the two be related? could a black hole be an atom with a periodic number in the (insert ridiculous number here) ?

If it were true that black holes where atoms / elements it'd turn two problems into one.
 
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tony169 said:
The laws of physics breaks down at an atomic level

No they don't. The known laws of physics don't break down until well below the scale of atoms. Atomic-scale interactions and behavior are extremely well known and our theories make extremely accurate predictions at that scale.

tony169 said:
could the two be related? could a black hole be an atom with a periodic number in the (insert ridiculous number here) ?

No, absolutely not. Atoms can't have more than a certain number of protons in their nuclei without becoming unstable due to the repulsion of said protons. So once you reach lead, anything after it is unstable, and the general trend is a decreasing stability as atomic number increases. That's why the elements with the largest known atomic numbers are so hard to synthesize and study. They all decay in fractions of a second!
 
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With respect, we really have no clue about the infinitely small and the infinitely massive, math does not work here.

But if matter in a black hole is compacted into infinite density, would that not be an atomic core?
 
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tony169 said:
With respect, we really have no clue about the infinitely small and the infinitely massive, math does not work here.

We are talking about neither infinitely small things nor infinitely massive things. Atoms and subatomic particles have non-zero interaction ranges (I say that instead of 'size' because size is a complicated issue when it comes to fundamental particles) while black holes do not have infinite mass.

tony169 said:
But if matter in a black hole is compacted into infinite density, would that not be an atomic core?

No, not at all. The nucleus of an atom is comprised of protons and neutrons in a bound state, which are themselves composed of quarks and gluons. Just looking at a neutron star we run into a situation where we find a 'sea' of free neutrons and protons in the middle regions of the star and quite possibly a quark-gluon plasma in the middle of the core. Neither of these match the conditions of an atomic nucleus.

The conditions inside a black hole are even more extreme, and are likely to create states of matter that we've never seen before and that are nothing like atomic nuclei.
 
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tony169 said:
With respect, we really have no clue about the infinitely small and the infinitely massive, math does not work here.

But if matter in a black hole is compacted into infinite density, would that not be an atomic core?
No, and no.

You're speculating wildly and apparently not interested in learning what is actually known, where it differs from your speculations. No point in continuing. Thread locked.
 
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