-aux.2.7.15 Euler's y'=\frac{3t^2}{3y^2-4}; y(1)=0

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the initial value problem (IVP) given by the differential equation $$y'=\frac{3t^2}{3y^2-4}$$ with the initial condition $$y(1)=0$$. Participants explore methods to estimate the solution at various points using Euler's Method, as well as discussing the separation of variables technique to derive a general solution.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose using Euler's Method with different step sizes (h = 0.1, 0.05, 0.025) to estimate values of y at t = 0.1, 0.2, and 0.4.
  • One participant provides a detailed iterative calculation for estimating y(0.4) and notes that the estimates differ from the exact solution derived from separation of variables.
  • Another participant questions the derivation of the equation $$y^3-4y = t^3-1$$ and seeks clarification on how it was obtained.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about the steps taken in the calculations and request the original problem statement for clarity.
  • There is a discussion about a different IVP $$y'=2y-1$$ with initial condition $$y(0)=1$$, where participants attempt to apply Euler's Method and express confusion about the purpose of solving the differential equation directly.
  • One participant asserts that the general solution to the second IVP is $$y = \frac{e^{2t}+1}{2}$$, while others focus on numerical methods.
  • There are mentions of the challenges faced in understanding video explanations and a preference for text-based communication.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the best approach to solving the IVPs. There are competing views on the use of numerical methods versus analytical solutions, and some participants express confusion about the steps involved in both methods.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential misunderstandings of the purpose of Euler's Method, as well as varying levels of comfort with mathematical notation and video resources. The discussion also reflects differing interpretations of the initial value problems presented.

karush
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Consider the IVP
$$y'=\frac{3t^2}{3y^2-4}, \quad y(1)=0$$
find estimates for t =0.1; 0.2; 0.4
using step sizes of h = 0.1; 0.05; and 0.025
using Euler's Method

ok ran out of time to do more steps but asume separation of variables is next
 
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karush said:
Consider the IVP
$$y'=\frac{3t^2}{3y^2-4}, \quad y(1)=0$$
find estimates for t =0.1; 0.2; 0.4
using step sizes of h = 0.1; 0.05; and 0.025
using Euler's Method

ok ran out of time to do more steps but asume separation of variables is next

You are given the initial condition y(1)= 0. I'll show you one of these so maybe you can get on the right track.

To estimate y(0.4) with a step size of h = 0.1, you will need to make iterative estimates for y(0.9), y(0.8), y(0.7), y(0.6), and y(0.5) to ultimately reach an estimate for y(0.4). Also note the steps will be in a decreasing direction, i.e. $h = \Delta t = -0.1$, because you're moving from t = 1 to t = 0.4.

$y(0.9) \approx y(1) + y'(1) \cdot (\Delta t) = 0 + \dfrac{3(1^2)}{3(0^2)-4} \cdot (-0.1) = 0.075$

$y(0.8) \approx y(0.9) + y'(0.9) \cdot (\Delta t) = 0.075 + \dfrac{3(0.9^2)}{3(0.075^2)-4} \cdot (-0.1) = 0.1360073749$

... note the values get messy, so an iterative numerical program will make this process much easier. I have such a program in my old TI-83 ...

$y(0.7) \approx y(0.8) + y'(0.8) \cdot (\Delta t) = 0.1846826718$

$y(0.6) \approx y(0.7) + y'(0.7) \cdot (\Delta t) = 0.2223974446$

$y(0.5) \approx y(0.6) + y'(0.6) \cdot (\Delta t) = 0.2504376076$

$y(0.4) \approx y(0.5) + y'(0.5) \cdot (\Delta t) = 0.2701131293$
To check the estimate, solving the DE by separation of variables yields the equation $y^3-4y = t^3-1$

Using this equation, $t = 0.4 \implies y \approx 0.2373424609$. The estimate of y(0.4) using Euler differs by about 0.03. Use of a smaller $\Delta t$ will yield a closer estimate.
 
ok not real sure how you got $y$

oh wait $y(1)=0$

how did you get this?
$y^3-4y = t^3-1$
 
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karush said:
ok not real sure how you got $y$

oh wait $y(1)=0$

how did you get this?
$y^3-4y = t^3-1$

$\dfrac{dy}{dt} = \dfrac{3t^2}{3y^2-4}$

as I stated in my response, separate variables ...

$(3y^2-4) \, dy = 3t^2 \, dt$

integrate ...

$y^3 - 4y = t^3 + C$

$y(1) = 0 \implies C = -1$
 
let me see if i did first step correct on the next one given:
$\quad y'=2y-1 \quad y(0)=1\\
h=0.1,\quad 0.05,\quad 0.025,\quad 0.01 \\
t=0.5 \quad 1, \quad 1.5, \quad 2.5$
$$y(0.5)\approx y(1) + 2(0.5) \cdot (0.1) =0+1(0.1)=0.1$$

 

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karush said:
let me see if i did first step correct on the next one given:
$\quad y'=2y-1 \quad y(0)=1\\
h=0.1,\quad 0.05,\quad 0.025,\quad 0.01 \\
t=0.5 \quad 1, \quad 1.5, \quad 2.5$
$$y(0.5)\approx y(1) + 2(0.5) \cdot (0.1) =0+1(0.1)=0.1$$

I have no idea what you are doing ... can you post the problem as written instead of your interpretation?
 
View attachment 8724
#2

$\quad y'=2y-1 \quad y(0)=1$
then
$y(0.5)\approx y(1) + 2(0.5) \cdot (0.1) =0+1(0.1)=0.1$book answers are {just did the first one)

$h=0.1\quad 0.05,\quad 0.025,\quad 0.01 \\
t=0.5 \quad 1, \quad 1.5, \quad 2.5$
 
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the image helps a lot ...

#2 $y' = 2y-1$ , $y(0) = 1$

(a) $y(0.1) \approx y(0) + y'(0) \cdot h$

$y(0.1) \approx 1 + (1) \cdot (0.1) = 1.1$$y(0.2) \approx y(0.1) + y'(0.1) \cdot h$

$y(0.2) \approx 1.1 + (1.2) \cdot (0.1) = 1.22$$y(0.3) \approx y(0.2) + y'(0.2) \cdot h$

$y(0.3) \approx 1.22 + (1.44) \cdot (0.1) = 1.364$$y(0.4) \approx y(0.3) + y'(0.3) \cdot h$

$y(0.4) \approx 1.364 + (1.728) \cdot (0.1) = 1.5368$now ... you try part (b) which reduces the step size to half that of part (a).
Note that will require twice the number of iterations
 
OK well for (b) we have $h=0.05$ so

$\displaystyle\int 2y-1 \, dy = y^2-y+c$
$y(0)=0^2-0+c=1$
$c=1$
so
$y()=y^2-y+1$

\begin{align}
(a)\quad y(0.05)& \approx y(0) + y'(0) \cdot (0.05)\\
&\approx 1+1(0.05) = 1.05\\
(b)\quad y(0.2)&\approx y(1.05)+y'(0) \cdot (0.05)\\

\end{align}
 
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  • #10
karush said:
OK well for (b) we have $h=0.05$ so

$\displaystyle\int 2y-1 \, dy = y^2-y+c$
$y(0)=0^2-0+c=1$
$c=1$
so
$y()=y^2-y+1$

\begin{align}
(a)\quad y(0.05)& \approx y(0) + y'(0) \cdot (0.05)\\
&\approx 1+1(0.05) = 1.05\\
(b)\quad y(0.2)&\approx y(1.05)+y'(0) \cdot (0.05)\\

\end{align}

why are you solving the DE? (incorrectly, I might add) ... the solution to $y'=2y-1$ with initial condition $y(0) = 1$ is $y = \dfrac{e^{2t}+1}{2}$

I don't think you understand the purpose of Euler's method. Recommend you have a look see at this linked video ...

 
  • #11
sorry I'm mostly deaf can't really hear these vids very good better in text

ok well you didn't show the general solution in your example
 
  • #12
karush said:
sorry I'm mostly deaf can't really hear these vids very good better in text

ok well you didn't show the general solution in your example

Are you not able to activate the closed-captioning in the video?

$\dfrac{dy}{dt} = 2y-1$

$\dfrac{dy}{2y-1} = dt$

$\dfrac{2}{2y-1} \,dy = 2 \, dt$

$\ln|2y-1| = 2t+C$

$2y-1 = e^{2t+C}$

$y = \dfrac{e^{2t+C} + 1}{2}$
 

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