Binding force applicable only to photons?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter JustAnyone
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Force Photons
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around fundamental forces in physics, specifically questioning the nature of the weak nuclear force and the concept of binding forces at very small distances, particularly in relation to photons. It touches on theoretical aspects of gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether the weak nuclear force is repulsive only, suggesting it is better understood as an interaction rather than a classical force.
  • There is a claim that mass is not condensed photons, with a participant explaining that photons are quantized interactions of the electromagnetic field.
  • Participants discuss the nature of the strong nuclear force, noting it can be both attractive and repulsive depending on the particles and distance involved.
  • One participant asserts that gravitational and electromagnetic forces decrease with the square of the distance, while the strong and weak forces behave differently, with the strong force having a maximum range and falling off exponentially.
  • A question is raised about the idea that binding forces at very small distances could only bind photons, with some participants suggesting this concept may resemble a geon, which would be particles made of waves held together by gravity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the weak nuclear force and the concept of mass as condensed photons. There is no consensus on whether the idea of binding forces only involving photons is established or novel, indicating multiple competing views remain.

Contextual Notes

Some claims about the nature of forces and their ranges depend on specific definitions and interpretations within quantum mechanics, which may not be universally agreed upon. The discussion also reflects varying levels of understanding of quantum mechanics among participants.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to individuals exploring fundamental physics concepts, particularly those curious about the nature of forces and particle interactions at quantum scales.

JustAnyone
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Two Questions about fundamental forces:

1. Gravity is attractive, Electromagnetics is attractive and repulsive, Strong nuclear is attractive only (?) ... Is the weak nuclear force repulsive only ? Wikipedia is _vague_ on this. Also, I'm remembering that gravity increase with the square of the distance, electromagnetics likewise, but strong and weak increase with higher exponents. Is this correct?

2. With E=Mc^2, it follows that mass is condensed photons. QUESTION: If there are binding (attractive) forces active over VERY small distances (following some inverse-Nth law), then the only 'particles' small enough to be bound together are photons. Is this an existing idea that has a popular name, is this obviously wrong for some reason, or is it a novel concept? I'm just some guy, I have no right to claim novel thought in this realm, it strikes me this has probably been thought of before.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
The weak force is better understood as an interaction, not a classical force. It doesn't push or pull objects, it allows them to interact and do things like decay into certain other particles. The fundamental forces are usually understood as interactions when we get into Quantum Mechanics, as the concept of force in the classical sense, IE a push or pull, does NOT apply. Interactions allow objects to cause changes upon other objects.
Edit: The end result of say, the electromagnetic interaction between two protons, is the same in both classical physics and QM, it's just that QM has different math that doesn't allow us to use the classical force equation.

Mass is NOT condensed photons. Photons are the quantized interaction of the electromagnetic field. Put simply, an EM wave passes over something and transfers energy to that object in small "chunks". We label these chunks as photons. Photons have energy which can be transferred to matter, such as when a photon is absorbed and turned into heat, and even be turned into other particles that do have rest mass such as pair production of an electron-positron pair.
 
JustAnyone said:
Strong nuclear is attractive only (?)

The strong force can be both attractive and repulsive, depending on the particles involved and the distance between them.

JustAnyone said:
Is the weak nuclear force repulsive only ?

As Drakkith said, the weak force isn't really a force in the classical sense.

JustAnyone said:
Also, I'm remembering that gravity increase with the square of the distance,

First, the gravitational force and electromagnetic force *decrease* with the square of the distance from the object.

JustAnyone said:
strong and weak increase with higher exponents. Is this correct?

The strong force essentially has a maximum range of about 10^-15 meters, beyond which it falls off exponentially. The weak force essentially has a maximum range of 2.5*10^-18 meters, beyond which it falls off exponentially.

JustAnyone said:
With E=Mc^2, it follows that mass is condensed photons.

No.

JustAnyone said:
QUESTION: If there are binding (attractive) forces active over VERY small distances (following some inverse-Nth law), then the only 'particles' small enough to be bound together are photons.

Photons aren't really smaller than other particles. All the fundamental particles in the standard model are point particles. [Note that protons and neutrons are not point particles: they are really composed of several (pointlike) quarks orbiting each other, and so have a finite size]

JustAnyone said:
Is this an existing idea that has a popular name, is this obviously wrong for some reason, or is it a novel concept?

It sounds sort of like a geon. Geons, if they're possible, would be "particles" made of electromagnetic or gravitational waves and held together by gravity.
 
Thank you both for your informative replies. I've not had any quantum mechanics classes. My wife and I have been quite impressed that the pervasive growth of internet communications tech has led to the ability to ask serious questions of learned people with minimal overhead costs. The fact that there are people "out there" who are nice enough, and knowledgeable enough, to reply to novice questions - this is a wonderful thing. In a quasi-religious sense, it restores/adds to my faith in humanity. Thank you again.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 28 ·
Replies
28
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
4K
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
Replies
6
Views
5K