Boeing, Airbus executives urge delay in U.S. 5G wireless deployment

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the potential impact of the deployment of 5G wireless services on aviation safety, particularly concerning interference with aircraft electronics such as radio altimeters. Participants explore the economic interests of airlines and cellphone carriers, the differences in regulatory approaches between the U.S. and other countries, and proposed solutions to mitigate risks.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note the strong economic interests at stake for both airlines and cellphone carriers, emphasizing the need for a safe technical solution.
  • Concerns are raised about the potential adverse effects of 5G interference on aircraft operations, particularly regarding radio altimeters.
  • One participant questions the rationale for delaying 5G deployment in the U.S. by pointing to other countries, like Germany, where 5G is already active.
  • Another participant highlights differences in regulatory standards for 5G signal strength between the U.S. and Europe, suggesting that U.S. regulations permit much stronger signals.
  • A proposal is mentioned to reduce 5G transmit strength near airports to mitigate interference with aircraft electronics.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the FAA's warnings, noting that there have been no proven reports of harmful interference in other countries with higher 5G transmission limits.
  • There is a discussion about the limitations of GPS altitude measurements compared to radar altimeters, particularly during landings.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity and implications of delaying 5G deployment, with some questioning the validity of the concerns raised by aviation executives and others emphasizing the potential risks to safety. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best approach to balance technological advancement and aviation safety.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference varying international standards and regulatory practices, indicating that the discussion is influenced by differing definitions of safety and technological limits. There are unresolved questions about the adequacy of current safety measures and the potential for interference.

berkeman
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I heard about this yesterday on the radio. Both sides (the airlines and the cellphone carriers) have very strong economic interests at stake, and hopefully a good (safe) technical solution can be found and tested quickly.

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https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...urge-delay-5g-wireless-deployment-2021-12-21/

WASHINGTON, Dec 20 (Reuters) - Boeing (BA.N) Chief Executive Dave Calhoun and Airbus Americas (AIR.PA) CEO Jeffrey Knittel on Monday urged the Biden administration to delay planned deployment of new 5G wireless services, saying it could harm aviation safety.

The executives in a joint letter seen by Reuters asked U.S. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg to support postponing AT&T (T.N) and Verizon's (VZ.N) Jan. 5 deployment of C-Band spectrum 5G wireless."5G interference could adversely affect the ability of aircraft to safely operate," the letter said, adding it could have "an enormous negative impact on the aviation industry."

The industry and Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) have raised concerns about potential interference of 5G with sensitive aircraft electronics like radio altimeters.
 
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What about the rest of the world where 5G is already active? In Germany for example. Strange request.
 
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fresh_42 said:
What about the rest of the world where 5G is already active? In Germany for example. Strange request.
Looks like it may be a difference in transmit signal strength in the US versus Europe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5G#Electromagnetic_interference

At the 2019 quadrennial World Radiocommunication Conference (WRC), atmospheric scientists advocated for a strong buffer of −55 dBW, European regulators agreed on a recommendation of −42 dBW, and US regulators (the FCC) recommended a restriction of −20 dBW, which would permit signals 150 times stronger than the European proposal. The ITU decided on an intermediate −33 dBW until September 1, 2027 and after that a standard of −39 dBW.[70]

This is closer to the European recommendation but even the delayed higher standard is much weaker than that pleaded for by atmospheric scientists, triggering warnings from the World Meteorological Organization (WMO) that the ITU standard, at 10 times less stringent than its recommendation, brings the "potential to significantly degrade the accuracy of data collected".[71]
 
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BTW, one of the proposals to fix the issue in the US is to reduce 5G transmit strength near airports where the aircraft are at low altitude and using their radio altimeters...
 
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At the risk of being political, it seems to be a "turf war" between the US FCC and FAA. Europeans have difficulty understanding how evil government can be here.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...-despite-having-no-proof-of-harm-to-aviation/

The FAA issued a November 2 bulletin that warned of "potential adverse effects on radio altimeters," but that bulletin acknowledged there have been no "proven reports of harmful interference," even in countries that allow 5G transmissions above the 3.98 GHz limit set by the FCC.
 
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Guessing (not really) that GPS altitude doesn't care about 5G. (I know)
 
Dullard said:
Guessing (not really) that GPS altitude doesn't care about 5G. (I know)
Not good enough. Radar altimeters are used during landings, (50 feet ... 30 feet ... 10 feet ... touchdown). GPS altitude is very approximate, and it doesn't measure height above the ground at all.
 
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