Can a Sundial Measure Ecliptic Longitude Accurately?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the feasibility of using a sundial-type device to measure ecliptic longitude, an astronomical variable. Participants explore theoretical approaches and mathematical considerations related to this concept, including the geometry of the Earth and the position of the Sun.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes a method involving a vertical flag pole on the equator and a coordinate circle to measure ecliptic longitude based on the shadow cast by the Sun.
  • Another participant introduces the concept of elliptical longitude, discussing its measurement in relation to the semi-major axis and eccentricity of Earth's orbit.
  • A third participant emphasizes the need to validate the proposed sundial method and expresses interest in its simplicity and potential novelty.
  • Another participant critiques the relationship between azimuth and ecliptic longitude, suggesting that the azimuth should be close to 90 degrees and questioning the validity of the initial proposal.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity and relevance of the proposed method for measuring ecliptic longitude. There is no consensus on the accuracy or practicality of the sundial approach, and multiple competing perspectives are presented.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight limitations in the assumptions made regarding the geometry of the Earth and the Sun's position, as well as the need for further verification of mathematical claims related to the proposed method.

Helios
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I have an idea how to measure the ecliptic longitude with a sundial type device. Ecliptic longitude is a astronomical variable so I chose this forum.

Suppose we have a vertical flag pole poised on the equator of the Earth.
A "coordinate circle" is drawn that surrounds the flag pole, radius = ( flag pole height )*tan( e ), e = 23.4393° = tilt of Earth.
So when the shadow point crosses the coordinate circle, the altitude of the Sun is 66.5607°.

Now with some doodling, I have a conjecture to offer.

When the shadow point crosses the coordinate circle, the ecliptic longitude will equal the azimuth of the Sun measured from due east as 0° and positve going counter-clockwise. Take care to note that due east azimuth for the Sun is due west for the shadow point.
It is obvious that the shadow point usually crosses the circle twice in a day, so it is assumed that the observer knows to use the reading closest to 24 hours from the previous one.

Is this correct? Is what that is being measured the ecliptic longitude?
 
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The elliptical longitude of the Earth is measured at the extremes distances:

max = a*(1+e)
min = a*(1-e)

a - Semi-Major Axis
e - Eccentricity

The elliptic longitude is measured by three factors:

eclLong = N + w + t

where:

N - Longitude of the Ascending Node
w - Argument of the Periapsis
t - True Anomaly
 
Philosophaie, not that what you say isn't true, but it's not relevant. The task is to prove that one can measure elliptic longitude with a vertical pole on the equator just as I describe.

I think this sundial is remarkable and so simple. Yet I don't think it has ever been discovered before. That's why I wish someones would look into it and verify my math.
 
On the Greenwich Meridian the Azimuth is equal to the Ecliptic Longitude which makes ludicris because the azimuth is North-South and the ecl Long is along 23.4393deg from the equator and the equinox point.

The azimuth must be close to 90deg because the pole can only be so high making the ecl Long approximately equal to 90deg minus the radius of pole location.

The altitude of the sun casts a shadow when close to the eastern hemisphere 2X a day.

The measured ecliptical longitude will be somewhere a close to 90deg witha negative ecliptic lonitude when it travels from the outer part of the circle to the center on the equator.
 

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