Can dowsing rods detect water and other underground objects?

[Aether]

That's a very cool story, Aether. What material were your rods made of?

Thank you, zooby. The rods were thin forked "green" and very flexible sticks cut from saplings. The dowser recommended one type of tree, but we just used whatever was handy.

You can see in the illustrations in the link how a magnetic field is "pinched" together when a ferrous metal is present with areas of rarefaction on the outsides. That says that there is, at least potentially, something real and authentic to detect. An underground flow of water might somehow have the same effect on a field, or it may just be the presence of the water cavity itself is enough to distort the field.

That seems like a plausible-enough explanation to warrant a careful examination assuming that there is still a repeatable dowsing signal present after steps have been taken to eliminate subliminal cues entering through the normal five senses..

 

[zoobyshoe]

Thank you, zooby. The rods were thin forked "green" and very flexible sticks cut from saplings. The dowser recommended one type of tree, but we just used whatever was handy.

Hmmmmm. I've never liked the fact it could be done with forked sticks. No matter how green they might be they can't conduct as well as metal, and there's no reason I can think of for them to have any response to any magnetic field.

That seems like a plausible-enough explanation to warrant a careful examination assuming that there is still a repeatable dowsing signal present after steps have been taken to eliminate subliminal cues entering through the normal five senses..

My first idea for a test was to see if the rods did this themselves, or if a rod-human configuration was the only one that worked. I figured once you found a spot where the rods responded strongly with a person, you could mount the rods by themselves on an all wood or all plastic rolling cart and pull them over the spot to see it they responded. Whatever the outcome it would tell you alot.

 

[PIT2]

Last week there was a TV show about an institute in America called "the body farm", where they research and document the rotting process of corpses. They have about 50 corpses laying in the woods there in different positions, some buried, some clothed, etc.

One of the researchers also found out that it was possible to use dowsing to locate buried corpses. He said he thought it was the rotting meat that released chemicals and salt or something, which made the sticks move. He let a visiting woman try and find a corpse this way, and it worked both times she tried.

 

[Aether]

Hmmmmm. I've never liked the fact it could be done with forked sticks. No matter how green they might be they can't conduct as well as metal, and there's no reason I can think of for them to have any response to any magnetic field.
My first idea for a test was to see if the rods did this themselves, or if a rod-human configuration was the only one that worked. I figured once you found a spot where the rods responded strongly with a person, you could mount the rods by themselves on an all wood or all plastic rolling cart and pull them over the spot to see it they responded. Whatever the outcome it would tell you alot.

There is no way that a local distortion of the geomagnetic field is going to be able to directly apply a sensible force to either a metal rod or a stick. I think that whatever the mechanism, it has to be the central nervous system (CNS) of the dowser that directs their muscles to move the rod/stick. The question is, what is it that the CNS is reacting to?

 

[SGT]

My best guess: I saw a science program about a study of this. High speed video shows that dowsers react before the rods - the muscles in the arm can be seen to flex before the dowsing rod responds. In other words, the dowser causes the action of the dowsing rod, not the water or power lines. At a glance this implies that dowsing is a bogus skill, but I think this relates to some primitive, natural ability within us to find water. It seems to me that the dowsing rods only act as motion amplifiers that alert us to our own subtle reactions.

This is called ideomotor effect

The ideomotor effect refers to the influence of suggestion or expectaton on involuntary and unconscious motor behavior. The term "ideomotor action" was coined by William B. Carpenter in 1852 in his explanation for the movements of rods and pendulums by dowsers, and some table turning or lifting by spirit mediums (the ones that weren't accomplished by cheating). Carpenter argued that muscular movement can be initiated by the mind independently of volition or emotions. We may not be aware of it, but suggestions can be made to the mind by others or by observations. Those suggestions can influence the mind and affect motor behavior.

It is not bogus, as you already know, since your father and uncle do it. Most dowsers are sincerely deluded people. They are normally very knowledgeable of their surroundings and have several unconscious cues or the presence of water.
The dowsing rod is normally held in such a manner that imperceptible muscle movements are amplified, making the rod bend.
The http://www.randi.org/jr/011102.html tested 52 dowsers in a controlled experiment, obtaining results consistent with chance.
If your father and uncle want to try it, The JREF offers one million dollars for a successful controlled dowsing demonstration.

 

[zoobyshoe]

There is no way that a local distortion of the geomagnetic field is going to be able to directly apply a sensible force to either a metal rod or a stick. I think that whatever the mechanism, it has to be the central nervous system (CNS) of the dowser that directs their muscles to move the rod/stick.

I agree it seems impossible. I think that particular experiment has to be done, though, to clearly establish that it isn't the rods. Faraday used to exhaustively test any possible explanation whether or not he thought it had the slightest promise.

The question is, what is it that the CNS is reacting to?

Yes, this is the direction my thinking has started to take. There is an apparent requirement that the hands be held in a fist and slightly ahead of the torso. Does that posture somehow cause an amplified reaction to what's being sensed?

 

[zoobyshoe]

One of the researchers also found out that it was possible to use dowsing to locate buried corpses.

One of the things I want to sort out is whether or not the essential thing the dowser is sensing is disturbed earth. Almost all soil contails a lot of little magnetic iron oxide particles. These are essentially tiny permanent magnets. For the most part their magnetic fields are aligned north-south just because they have sat in the Earth's magnetic field so long they've had this alignment imposed on them. Digging dirt up and putting it back causes all these little fields to be completely misaligned. In truth, this is a pretty tiny disturbance, but it's what occurs to me that is authentically there to work with.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Most dowsers are sincerely deluded people. They are normally very knowledgeable of their surroundings and have several unconscious cues or the presence of water.

This must certainly be true in some cases: the person is picking up on subliminal suggestions from the landscape about where water might be. The more you do it, and the more you can compare hits to misses, the better you get at knowing which indicators to value more highly.

At the same time I'd like to see my "disturbed earth" notion looked into with good experiments. If this were what most dowsers are detecting it would explain a lot of misses. They would be detecting places that had been dug up and refilled for whatever reason but where there was no water or anything else you might "dowse" for.

 

[SGT]

One of the things I want to sort out is whether or not the essential thing the dowser is sensing is disturbed earth. Almost all soil contails a lot of little magnetic iron oxide particles. These are essentially tiny permanent magnets. For the most part their magnetic fields are aligned north-south just because they have sat in the Earth's magnetic field so long they've had this alignment imposed on them. Digging dirt up and putting it back causes all these little fields to be completely misaligned. In truth, this is a pretty tiny disturbance, but it's what occurs to me that is authentically there to work with.

As far as I know, ferromagnectic particles tend to align themselves to Earth's magnectic field when they are part of molten material. Once the rock solidifies, they are stuck in position.
This is what allows scientists to affirm that Earth's magnectic poles have being switching positions in geological times. The magnectic particles in the rocks keep the position they had when the lava solidified.

 

[zoobyshoe]

As far as I know, ferromagnectic particles tend to align themselves to Earth's magnectic field when they are part of molten material. Once the rock solidifies, they are stuck in position.
This is what allows scientists to affirm that Earth's magnectic poles have being switching positions in geological times. The magnectic particles in the rocks keep the position they had when the lava solidified.

That's a specific situation that only exists in certain rock formations in the vicinity of old volcanos. You can't do that with the tiny magnets in the soil because they've always become realigned with the current north pole. They are free to move and any shaking of the ground or loosening of the soil by saturation with water gives them an opportunity to shift so they are in line. Over a hundred, two hundred, or five hundred years, who knows, after they are deposited at random they can end up all aligned.

(I should amend that you can do it with soil if the soil was subjected to heating. They believe they've found ancient campfire sites that point to a different north, one that was in place when the fires were made over the soil.)

 

[Aether]

I agree it seems impossible. I think that particular experiment has to be done, though, to clearly establish that it isn't the rods.

OK. Why don't you do the experiment then? It shouldn't be difficult at all. In the mean time, I'm thinking about repeating the experiment that I described earlier to see if I can quantify the repeatability of points picked out along a long straight line.

Faraday used to exhaustively test any possible explanation whether or not he thought it had the slightest promise.

This is a constructive attitude for getting to the bottom of any mystery such as dowsing. However, I'm sure that even Faraday preferred to go for the "low hanging fruit" first.

This is called ideomotor effect

An easy demonstration of this (even easier than dowsing) is to suspend a small weight from the base of your index finger using a wire (or string), and while trying to hold it steadily suspended over a point, think "circle". The weight will soon begin circling the point. Then think "back and forth", very soon the weight will begin swinging back and forth!

 

[zoobyshoe]

OK. Why don't you do the experiment then? It shouldn't be difficult at all.

Mainly because I live in the middle of a city and there's nowhere to walk around with dowsing rods without getting stared at.

In the mean time, I'm thinking about repeating the experiment that I described earlier to see if I can quantify the repeatability of points picked out along a long straight line.

Something I should have asked before is whether or not you saw your mother do the first "dowse".

This is a constructive attitude for getting to the bottom of any mystery such as dowsing. However, I'm sure that even Faraday preferred to go for the "low hanging fruit" first.

Actually, his collected experiments are a frustrating read because he so meticulously explored things that seem obvious dead ends. He understood that if you don't specifically rule a remote possibility out, there'll always be a question about it, and he also knew that no matter what you do, there's a chance something interesting and unexpected, worth further investigation, will result. He wasn't really interested in demystifying anything, but in exploring all the possible permutations of a phenomenon.

It seems obvious there is no need to test the effect of a magnetic field on glass, for instance. It's clear from a little playing around that magnets don't attract glass. Faraday decided he'd test anything he could think of, and discovered the phenomena of paramagnetism and diamagnetism.

This:

The detections were not subtle at all as I recall, and the dowsing rod felt almost like it was going to be yanked out of our hands a number of times!

clearly says you felt torque applied to the rod by an outside force. It strikes me as important to explore for any non-CNS involved manifestations of the same torque before we assume anything.

One thing you might do is to make a rod, and hold it in the right way, and explore what muscles have to be involved to give it the same feeling of torque.

 

[Aether]

Mainly because I live in the middle of a city and there's nowhere to walk around with dowsing rods without getting stared at.

Do you have access to an indoor place with a fairly large and smooth floor? That would seem to be ideal for your experiment since you'll have to move rods/sticks around on some sort of cart in one phase of your test.

Something I should have asked before is whether or not you saw your mother do the first "dowse".

Yes, I watched her do the first "dowse", and she located about half-a-dozen strong signals. When I re-traced her steps blindfolded, I re-located those signals, and each time I removed the blindfold the dowsing rod was pointing directly down at the center of the small pile of rocks that she had made.

This: clearly says you felt torque applied to the rod by an outside force.

It felt as if a torque was applied to the stick by and outside force, but I assume that it was due to an involuntary muscle contraction(s).

It strikes me as important to explore for any non-CNS involved manifestations of the same torque before we assume anything.

I am certain that electrodynamics can't explain the deflection of the dowsing rod in terms of the geomagnetic field applying a force directly to the dowsing rod. A non-CNS explanation would have to involve a new force of nature (e.g., a ghost, etc.).

One thing you might do is to make a rod, and hold it in the right way, and explore what muscles have to be involved to give it the same feeling of torque.

The deflection of the dowsing rod is involuntary. I suppose that I could build some biomedical sensors to monitor the muscles in my forearms...but first I would like to verify that there really is a repeatable dowsing signal in the first place. Otherwise the point about which muscles are flexing is moot.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Do you have access to an indoor place with a fairly large and smooth floor? That would seem to be ideal for your experiment since you'll have to move rods/sticks around on some sort of cart in one phase of your test.

I have a two car garage and actually already tried out some metal dowsing rods in there last year without any results. Could be there's nothing to detect or I don't have the right stuff.

Yes, I watched her do the first "dowse", and she located about half-a-dozen strong signals. When I re-traced her steps blindfolded, I re-located those signals, and each time I removed the blindfold the dowsing rod was pointing directly down at the center of the small pile of rocks that she had made.

This goes back to SGT's explanation, then. You may simple have made an accurate mental note of each place the rods responded and the ideomotor effect kicked in when you reached those spots. Under the circumstances any sufficiently skeptical person can claim you were acting on an unconscious record of how many steps she took. I'd reccomend two new people, and the second can't watch the first.

It felt as if a torque was applied to the stick by and outside force, but I assume that it was due to an involuntary muscle contraction(s).

This is what's impressive about your story, that fact it isn't a subtle effect.

I am certain that electrodynamics can't explain the deflection of the dowsing rod in terms of the geomagnetic field applying a force directly to the dowsing rod. A non-CNS explanation would have to involve a new force of nature (e.g., a ghost, etc.).

Well, how much do you know about weird electrodynamic effects? Did you know there's an electromagnet that can pick up non-ferrous metals? Did you know you can generate electricity from steam impinging on wood? There's quite a number of peculiar effects that most people don't know about because no one has ever found a good commercial use for them. Dowsing may or may not be due to one of these peculiar side things that people don't pay attention to.

The deflection of the dowsing rod is involuntary.

Still, you ought to be able to voluntarily reproduce the action, even if it lacks the "outside force" quality. Also, if it's CNS then a person ought to be able to walk over a hot spot with their arms and hands in the "dowsing" position and get a spasm without any rods.

 

[Aether]

This goes back to SGT's explanation, then. You may simple have made an accurate mental note of each place the rods responded and the ideomotor effect kicked in when you reached those spots.

This sounds plausible, but no less fascinating to me if it turns out to be just so.

Under the circumstances any sufficiently skeptical person can claim you were acting on an unconscious record of how many steps she took. I'd reccomend two new people, and the second can't watch the first.

Yes, unless I can rule out very good repeatability on a first pass based only on my own preformance, then I would use a second person who has minimal knowledge of my own results.

This is what's impressive about your story, that fact it isn't a subtle effect.

Right. Unless you are getting a clear and unmistakable signal, you aren't dowsing yet.

Did you know there's an electromagnet that can pick up non-ferrous metals? Did you know you can generate electricity from steam impinging on wood? There's quite a number of peculiar effects that most people don't know about because no one has ever found a good commercial use for them. Dowsing may or may not be due to one of these peculiar side things that people don't pay attention to.

OK, but I think that the moon's gravity is probably imposing a stronger force on the rod/stick than any geomagnetic anomaly. That's just a gut feel, I haven't calculated it.

Still, you ought to be able to voluntarily reproduce the action, even if it lacks the "outside force" quality.

Probably, with some practice. I don't want to do that too soon, or that could affect the results of measurements on the involuntary motions.

Also, if it's CNS then a person ought to be able to walk over a hot spot with their arms and hands in the "dowsing" position and get a spasm without any rods.

I think that Ivan's point about the dowsing rod being held in an unstable equilibrium is an important one. Once the actual mechanism is clearly understood, then it may be possible to engineer a more effective indicator.

 

[zoobyshoe]

If you call the people at path.berkeley.edu (where you got that info about magnetometers) and ask them who is the world expert on inductive sensors, then they will probably send you to me.

Well, that's all very impressive, but since I'm a worlds expert on...er...well...zoobie stuff, I am not intimidated.

OK, but I think that the moon's gravity is probably imposing a stronger force on the rod/stick than any geomagnetic anomaly. That's just a gut feel, I haven't calculated it.

I'm not thinking in terms of that, but of some sort of freak thing you wouldn't anticipate. The Earth's magnetic field is also clearly too weak to have any such sudden effect on the CNS also, unless having the arms and hands in that posture puts the body in some sort of amplification mode for the kind of anomoly being detected. Let me speculate wildly to give you an idea of the sort of thing you'd want to rule out: let's say green sticks are full of a certain kind of bacteria which live between layers of the wood which are sensitive to slight changes in the density of magnetic fields and that when they sense one they emit a tiny bubble of CO2. If 40 billion of them do this all at once the stick would experience a warping and suddenly seem to jump by itself in your hands.

If some freak thing like that were going on, you'd never find out if you don't test the sticks by themselves.

 

[SGT]

I have a two car garage and actually already tried out some metal dowsing rods in there last year without any results. Could be there's nothing to detect or I don't have the right stuff.

You could use plastic bottles. Some filled with water and some with dry sand and see if the rod bends for the water filled ones.
Of course, this will go against your theory of distorted magnectic fields, so it is highly probable that you will not have the ideomotor effect.
In the experiment in Australia, all dowsers used those bottles to "calibrate" their rods and it would work every time, when they knew the content of the bottles. In the blind test, the results were slightly below chance

This goes back to SGT's explanation, then. You may simple have made an accurate mental note of each place the rods responded and the ideomotor effect kicked in when you reached those spots. Under the circumstances any sufficiently skeptical person can claim you were acting on an unconscious record of how many steps she took. I'd reccomend two new people, and the second can't watch the first.

I agree with that.

This is what's impressive about your story, that fact it isn't a subtle effect.

Have you ever played with a Ouija board? The pointer seems to move of its own, exerting a strong force in your hand.

Well, how much do you know about weird electrodynamic effects? Did you know there's an electromagnet that can pick up non-ferrous metals? Did you know you can generate electricity from steam impinging on wood? There's quite a number of peculiar effects that most people don't know about because no one has ever found a good commercial use for them. Dowsing may or may not be due to one of these peculiar side things that people don't pay attention to.

Aether answered this better than I could.

Still, you ought to be able to voluntarily reproduce the action, even if it lacks the "outside force" quality. Also, if it's CNS then a person ought to be able to walk over a hot spot with their arms and hands in the "dowsing" position and get a spasm without any rods.

It is difficult to reproduce voluntarilly the movements of the rod, since you don't know exactly which muscles are involved. And you can't feel any spasms without the rod. For dowsing with a fork, you hold it applying a little tension to the two branches. This has a double effect. Your arm muscles are in an unnatural position and the fork is tensioned. Any involuntary muscular action will break the unstable equilibrium and bend the fork.

 

[Aether]

Well, that's all very impressive, but since I'm a worlds expert on...er...well...zoobie stuff, I am not intimidated.

Sometimes I wish I were a zoobie.

I'm not thinking in terms of that, but of some sort of freak thing you wouldn't anticipate...

OK.

The Earth's magnetic field is also clearly too weak to have any such sudden effect on the CNS also, unless having the arms and hands in that posture puts the body in some sort of amplification mode for the kind of anomoly being detected.

I wouldn't go that far. It is entirely plausible that an iron molecule(s) embedded within the CNS could be affected by the geomagnetic field, but I think that this is a less likely explanation than subliminal cues entering though the ordinary five senses.

If some freak thing like that were going on, you'd never find out if you don't test the sticks by themselves.

I'm not trying to talk you out of testing the sticks themselves! I'm just pointing out that electrodynamics can't explain the effect in terms of a geomagnetic anomaly imposing a force directly on the rod/stick..

 

[Aether]

Today I received one of the dowsing-rod sets that I ordered a few days ago, and although controlled experiments haven't begun yet, I have already noticed that not only do these dowsing rods cross when brought near really fluffy cats, but they darn near lifted my girlfriend's cat, Aspen, right out of her chair...and as if that was not enough, right after the flash for this picture I felt a very strong and sudden downward tug on the dowsing rods too. However, by the time I could see again, the rods had returned to their original position.

Seriously though, these L-rods aren't very impressive so far. They are constructed of 4" long copper tubes which serve as handles into which a brass rod, bent into an L-shape, is inserted. The brass L-rods are free to turn within the copper tubes, and therefore the L-rods will rotate in the horizontal plane when the copper tube is tilted at any small angle with respect to vertical (think of a very sensitive joystick). A small, barely perceptible, Parkinson's-like tremor of the hand is enough to sustain a propeller like rotation of the L-rod. When the L-rods are held in the standard way (e.g., as I am demonstrating in the attached photo) then controlled breathing can send the rods turning in any direction at will.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Your green stick sounds much more interesting; the effect being unmistakable.

Still, lots of cats go missing. There's surely a market for a cat dowser.

 

[SGT]

Your green stick sounds much more interesting; the effect being unmistakable.
Still, lots of cats go missing. There's surely a market for a cat dowser.

The green fork is held with the arms separated, causing a tension in the muscles and in the stick. Involuntary relaxation or additional tension in the muscles make the stick move.

 

[Aether]

Your green stick sounds much more interesting; the effect being unmistakable.

The green fork is held with the arms separated, causing a tension in the muscles and in the stick. Involuntary relaxation or additional tension in the muscles make the stick move.

I ordered a manufactured "V-rod" as well as some of the other devices from here: http://www.adermark.com/pendulums/Dowsing_Rods/dowsing_rods.html

I am a little concerned about doing experiments with green sticks because it wouldn't be easy to explain to someone else precisely how to duplicate my results using such a stick. With a manufactured V-rod, anyone can order a similar device off-the-shelf.

The L-rods seem to be simple "tilt meters", and this is interesting because high-precision digital tilt-meters can easily be built using some 2-axis or 3-axis accelerometers (a separate set for each hand). I love having this type of raw digital data to work with.

Still, lots of cats go missing. There's surely a market for a cat dowser.

...now this gives me an idea...perhaps the idea of the century, if it works...