Can Engineers Predict When a Structure Will Fall?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the ethical responsibilities of engineers in predicting structural failures, particularly in the context of a tragic incident involving a nightclub collapse that resulted in fatalities. Participants explore the implications of legal outcomes for the club owners and the broader ethical considerations for engineering practices.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Ethical considerations
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express concern over the leniency of the sentences given to the nightclub owners, questioning whether age should mitigate accountability for their actions.
  • Others argue that the legal framework necessitated charges of involuntary manslaughter, suggesting that civil lawsuits may follow the criminal proceedings.
  • A participant raises a philosophical question about the purpose of punishment, contemplating whether harsher sentences would serve as a deterrent or simply add to the tragedy.
  • There is a discussion about the ethical duty of club owners and engineers to prioritize safety, with references to the negligence involved in operating a structurally unsafe venue.
  • One participant humorously suggests that engineers should be recognized for their ability to predict structural failures, indicating a belief in the advancements of engineering practices.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the appropriateness of the legal consequences faced by the nightclub owners, with no consensus on whether the sentences were justified or effective as a deterrent. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the ethical implications of engineering responsibilities in such tragedies.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexities of legal and ethical accountability in engineering, particularly in cases involving loss of life. There are unresolved assumptions about the effectiveness of punishment as a deterrent and the responsibilities of engineers versus business owners.

russ_watters
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I update this story from time to time as it is a good ethics case study for engineers. The owners of the club at Pier 34 plead guilty/no contenst to involuntary manslaughter and their sentencing hearing began today.

I see on virtually a daily basis, in my job and in life, people who don't take their responsibilities seriously enough and fail to consider the ramifications of their actions/inactions. These guys, I suspect, are going to spend a long time in jail because of it.

http://www.nbc10.com/news/13552211/detail.html?dl=headlineclick
 
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russ_watters said:
These guys, I suspect, are going to spend a long time in jail because of it.

http://www.nbc10.com/news/13552211/detail.html?dl=headlineclick
Seems not -
Heat nightclub operator Eli Karetny, of Cherry Hill, N.J., was ordered to serve nine to 18 months on house arrest, then five years of probation.

Pier 34 owner Michael Asbell, of Merion, will serve 11 to 22 months house arrest and seven years of probation.

Additionally, Karetny and Asbell will each need to set up 1,000 hours of community service through a mentoring program for innercity youth.
Must have a lot of money / influential friends.
 
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The judge went easy on them because they are old. Personally, I don't consider that to be a good reason to let people get away with murder.
 
That was such a horrid fire. As the law goes, involuntary manslaughter would be the only way to charge them. Now that that is done, the civil law sutes can begin.
 
russ_watters said:
The judge went easy on them because they are old. Personally, I don't consider that to be a good reason to let people get away with murder.

just out of curiosity what do you think it would have accomplished to sentence to 15? or life? or death? the people are dead, ruining two more lives does what?

or do you think this it would have acted as a deterrant?
 
hypatia said:
That was such a horrid fire. As the law goes, involuntary manslaughter would be the only way to charge them. Now that that is done, the civil law sutes can begin.
Wrong night club. This one collapsed into the Delaware River and killed 4 people.
 
ice109 said:
just out of curiosity what do you think it would have accomplished to sentence to 15? or life? or death? the people are dead, ruining two more lives does what?
That argument applies to most crimes and implies that we shouldn't punish people for crimes. Punishment isn't just about getting people off the street, it is about punishing them.
or do you think this it would have acted as a deterrant?
I do. Like I said in the OP, people should take their actions more seriously. There are a lot of club owners (and others) who play Russian Roulette with the safety of their patrons - whether by opening up a club that is essentially guaranteed to collapse or chaining fire exits so they can't escape a fire.

I can't begin to imagine what was on the minds of these owners when they opened the club that night, but they were told this would happen - that makes it worse than Russian Roulette. They knew the chamber they got had a bullet in it and pulled the trigger anyway. That's like opening up a club that is already on fire.
 
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The engineers should win awards

You know your a great engineer when...

You can predict when a structure is going to fall naturally within a relative standard deviation of...6 sigma

Engineering sure has come a long way for us grad students! I could probably have come as close if I knew we were planning to blow it up that evening :cool: