Can something exist without time-space?

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Space and time can be considered to be relationships between elements. In space an element has a positional relation to other elements with other positional coordinates in whatever dimensionality is involved. In time an element has a relationship with a copy of the same element in a different array that tends to have copies of the other spatially related elements within the first array.

The question lies do these relationships necessitate the 'physical' or do they define the physical independent of it. One possibility is block time or block universe, where time would be an illusion, somehow the mere relationship between elements through a temporal dimension, actually is time itself.

Whether space itself is also merely the manifestation of the relationship between elements related in a particular way is also a possibility.

In mathematics, it was found that for example geometry and algebra were connected. That there was an intrinsic connection wereupon an equation and a line, a curve, an n-dimensional object could be related. The equation could be used to systematically obtain the coordinates of all the points in a geometric object, thus inherent in it was the relationship described by the geometry.

In the brain we see that, like in Plato's allegory of the cave, all that enters is but digital information. Colorless, tasteless, soundless, yet in this absolute darkness the brain is able to ellicit the controversial 'qualia' merely by obtaining the relationships out of the spatiotemporal statistical properties of this digital input. Out of mere relationships as implicit input, the most solid and intimate of conscious experiences is manifested. Might it not be that just as in the emergence of feeling in the mind, the rest of the world itself emerges out of the relationships of abstract information?


So if so, "If electrons couldn't move through neural paths in our brains and no object could change or decay in any way or move in any dimension it would be impossible to detect the pause in time." does seem to say would we (as humans) still be alive....?
As suggested by block time(block universe) possibility, this may already be our reality and the various 'instants' of our time are actually this, timeless structures embedded in some eternal medium. Time but an illusion or better said a relationship.

PS

An eternal world presents one with the possibility of there being an eternal record of one's existence. Whether this is accessible to any conceivable entity is another question. But the mere possibility of everything one did being recorded for eternity, that is longer than any human civilization could record, is pleasing. It would imply that one's achievements will forever be recorded, forever be.
 
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  • #27
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I haven't read all the posts in detail, but has anyone mentioned abstract things like the natural numbers? They exist in some sense as do Plato's ideal solids, but they do not exist per se in space and time . Certainly the properties of the natural numbers are discovered, not invented by humans. I'm sure any alien intelligence would have the same essential concepts of the natural numbers that humans have.
 
  • #28
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I haven't read all the posts in detail, but has anyone mentioned abstract things like the natural numbers? They exist in some sense as do Plato's ideal solids, but they do not exist per se in space and time . Certainly the properties of the natural numbers are discovered, not invented by humans. I'm sure any alien intelligence would have the same essential concepts of the natural numbers that humans have.
they are imaginary---if they are only thoughts, they don't exist. There has to be some definition of 'exist' (no 'per se' about it)---and imaginary things are not in that group.


Werewolves and vampires do not exist...

edit: even if you want to contemplate those things, it still takes 'time' to contemplate something 'imaginary'....
 
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  • #29
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they are imaginary---if they are only thoughts, they don't exist. There has to be some defhainition of 'exist' (no 'per se' about it)---and imaginary things are not in that group.
The natural numbers, a least, have properties that humans did not create. We have no general formula that efficiently generates all the primes for example. We do not fully understand the structure of the natural number system.

Imaginary things are private. They can be communicated between individuals, but they originate in someone's mind, such as literary fiction.

Do you think an alien intelligence would not have discovered the same system of natural numbers as humans have? They are universal, as are transcendental numbers like pi and e.

Do you think we imagine the value of pi?

You're confusing the existence of abstract entities with the way we represent them. It's true we invent those representations. The OP asked if anything exists outside of space and time. You apparently think abstract entities don't exist. Neither did I once. But I was three years old at the time.

EDIT: Are you seriously equating the existence of the natural numbers with the "existence" of werewolves and vampires?
 
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  • #30
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Actually aliens might not value pi as much as we do it really depends on how they want to look at the math. And it's also possible aliens might have found a way to work with numbers without using any number above 10 or 5 you never really know :) It is unlikely I agree.
 
  • #31
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Actually aliens might not value pi as much as we do it really depends on how they want to look at the math. And it's also possible aliens might have found a way to work with numbers without using any number above 10 or 5 you never really know :) It is unlikely I agree.
How do you "look at the math" and get a different value of pi?

Primitive societies have developed primitive number systems that only go up to some number such as 5 or 15. This is an issue, in part, of representation, and in part of a limited ability to abstract.
 
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  • #32
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This question was bothering me for long time, but i couldnt find the answer to this question.
Try to imagine that there is another world without time, space and matter. World that the human barin cant fully imagine. Can SOMETHING (no matter what) exist in this world? An entity of any kind? An other version of matter which doesnt need space to exist?
well, spooky action at a distance, as it is acting instantaneously over any distance, *may* imply that at the quantum level there is no time or space. Perhaps quantum law originates from outside our universe/reality.
 
  • #33
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Imagining a world with no space is the most difficult. Imagining a world with no time, space, or matter--priceless.
I don't only imagine 'it', I 'feel it' too.

Can you imagine Ultimate State of Existance?

Could it be a State of Beingness with highest awareness, purest joy, total peace, utmost beauty and deepest love?

Well, I say yes. And, there is no need for matter, space or time for 'It' to exist, for it's simply pure and complete awareness.
 
  • #34
DaveC426913
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I don't only imagine 'it', I 'feel it' too.

Can you imagine Ultimate State of Existance?

Could it be a State of Beingness with highest awareness, purest joy, total peace, utmost beauty and deepest love?

Well, I say yes. And, there is no need for matter, space or time for 'It' to exist, for it's simply pure and complete awareness.
We have a term her on PF for this, yes.

It's called
- gone off the rails
- left the reservation
- cheese slipped off the cracker

or most notably, thread locked.
 
  • #35
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Overly speculative. No longer meets forum criteria.

Thread closed.
 

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