Cinco de Mayo: Celebrating a Mexican Victory & US Unity

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the events surrounding Cinco de Mayo, particularly a controversy at a school where students wore American flag shirts on this holiday. Participants explore the implications of this incident, the cultural significance of Cinco de Mayo, and the broader themes of freedom of expression and multiculturalism in the United States.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Meta-discussion

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express confusion about the significance of Cinco de Mayo, noting that it is more widely celebrated in the U.S. than in Mexico.
  • One participant argues that wearing American flags on a Mexican holiday was provocative and could be seen as disrespectful, especially given the school's history of tensions between student groups.
  • Another participant defends the students' right to wear American flags, suggesting that banning such expressions infringes on their freedom of speech.
  • A later reply questions the school's decision, suggesting it reflects a lack of faith in the Latino community and missed educational opportunities regarding multicultural values.
  • Some participants draw parallels to other cultural celebrations in the U.S., questioning whether similar restrictions on displaying national symbols have occurred in those contexts.
  • One participant references the Supreme Court case Tinker v. Des Moines, arguing that students should have the right to express themselves unless there is clear intent to incite conflict.
  • Several posts express a need for more information about the incident, with some participants requesting sources and details to better understand the situation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views, with no clear consensus on whether the students were right or wrong in their actions, or on the appropriateness of the school's response. The discussion remains unresolved with competing perspectives on freedom of expression, cultural sensitivity, and the implications of the incident.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note the lack of detailed information about the incident, including the specific context of the school environment and the history of tensions between student groups. There are also references to ongoing discussions about cultural pride and identity.

Jimmy Snyder
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Recently, there was a flap over some non-hispanic kids wearing images of the US flag to school on Cinco de Mayo and getting sent home because of it. So I looked up information on Cinco de Mayo. I thought we were celebrating a condiment, but here is the real skinny. It is mostly an American holiday, not much celebrated in Mexico. It commemorates a battle won by Mexicans against French forces. I wonder how it would have gone down if those kids had been wearing French flags. Here is a photo from a Cinco de Mayo celebration.

http://symonsez.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/cincosaginaw.jpg"

Not surprisingly, it shows a flapping American flag as well as a Mexican one. The people seem happy enough, but I sense that they are trying in vain to hide their seething resentment. Before a fight breaks out, I want to remind them that you see American flags at all kinds of hyphened American pride celebrations in the US. I am not turning this into a formal poll, but you might like to chime in anyway:

1. Being an idiot myself, I agree with the idiot principal of that school.
2. Being a real person, and not a caracature of one, I am just as proud of being an American as are Mexican-Americans.
 
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I love cinco de mayo, it's usually a great day. This year the nueve de mayo was a better day for me, though.

I used to have a dog born on the cinco de mayo. He should have been named Juan, but the person who owned him before us (he was a used dog) had already named him Chester.
 
This isn't some school in the middle of nowhere, it was a school that had had prior problems with fighting between the two groups of students. And when, on a primarily Mexican holiday, a GROUP of young men decided to wear American flag shirts its fairly obvious they were trying to push the buttons of the hispanic students. While freedom of speech and expression exist in this country, it is the responsibility of the public school administration to deem certain clothing as volatile (i.e. Gang colors), which is pretty much what this is a case of.

The students were in the wrong. School was right.
 
Hepth said:
This isn't some school in the middle of nowhere, it was a school that had had prior problems with fighting between the two groups of students. And when, on a primarily Mexican holiday, a GROUP of young men decided to wear American flag shirts its fairly obvious they were trying to push the buttons of the hispanic students.

Source? I'm vaguely interested in the background of this non-sense (the incident, not your post).
 
The USA helped the Mexicans later defeat the French after the French had come and obliterated the Mexican army. I don't think it's proper that a school bans wearing your nations flag to school on a national holiday just because some other people may not like it.

After looking it up actually you can see that the celebrations have become more popular in the USA than in Mexico for Americans of Mexican heritage. If they are so proud to be American-Mexican why the fuss over the flag? If they are only proud to Mexican and don't like America then they can go back to Mexico.

I mean like, I can show I'm proud of my country on whatever day I please... especially in my own country.
 
Hepth said:
This isn't some school in the middle of nowhere, it was a school that had had prior problems with fighting between the two groups of students. And when, on a primarily Mexican holiday, a GROUP of young men decided to wear American flag shirts its fairly obvious they were trying to push the buttons of the hispanic students. While freedom of speech and expression exist in this country, it is the responsibility of the public school administration to deem certain clothing as volatile (i.e. Gang colors), which is pretty much what this is a case of.

The students were in the wrong. School was right.

I disagree. I believe this event just goes to show how much faith the principal of the school had of the Latino community at this school. If all it takes is wearing a flag to set them off into a frenzy of 'gang-fighting' then that school is a miserable failure. I see this event as more of a true moment to teach the students about the real values held in a multi-cultural society... a teaching moment which the school failed miserably to capitalize on and in fact did the opposite.
 
St. Patrick's Day and Columbus Day are the first two examples of annual celebrations that take place throughout the US that involve members of immigrant groups as well as the general population. I'm not aware of any situations of similarity...can anyone find a specific link whereby general population Americans were not permitted to "fly US colors"?
 
The situation seems similar to the Supreme Court case Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District. In this case, students were suspended from school for wearing black armbands in protest of the Vietnam war. The court, however, ruled that the school's ban on the armbands was unconstitutional. In the majority opinion, Justice Abe Fortas wrote that in order to justify violating students' right to free speech, the school "must be able to show that [their] action was caused by something more than a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint." Therefore, the students seem well within their constitutional rights to have worn their American flag shirts even if such actions may have been unpopular.

Of course, if school officials thought that the students were trying to intentionally start conflict with other students by wearing these shirts, school officials would be well within their rights to monitor these students and intervene should they try to start a fight. But that is the point where the school should intervene and not when they show up in the American flag shirts.
 
Insufficient information.

No link, no details, merely speculations.
 
  • #10
rootX said:
Insufficient information.

No link, no details, merely speculations.

Heres the more updated article:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/07/tensions-high-california-high-school-following-flag-flap/

", a day after more than 200 Hispanic students reportedly skipped class on Thursday and marched to school district headquarters while chanting "we want respect" and "si se puede""
"Police have been told to be on alert for gang-related retaliation against the boys, according to Ken Jones, whose stepson, Daniel Galli, was one of the students who refused to turn their T-shirts inside-out when asked by a vice principal on Wednesday. "

So there has been more activity. So the police (who escorted the students) allegedly are "on alert" for gang related retaliation.

If they actually feel the need to be on alert, it most likely backs up the idea that there has been previous tension, though we can't be certain.

http://www.morganhilltimes.com/news/265506-tea-partiers-rally-in-support-of-lohs-students-america

On the saturday after, the tea party felt like they should be there...
 
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  • #11
Hepth said:
Heres the more updated article:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/07/tensions-high-california-high-school-following-flag-flap/

", a day after more than 200 Hispanic students reportedly skipped class on Thursday and marched to school district headquarters while chanting "we want respect" and "si se puede""
"Police have been told to be on alert for gang-related retaliation against the boys, according to Ken Jones, whose stepson, Daniel Galli, was one of the students who refused to turn their T-shirts inside-out when asked by a vice principal on Wednesday. "

So there has been more activity. So the police (who escorted the students) allegedly are "on alert" for gang related retaliation.

If they actually feel the need to be on alert, it most likely backs up the idea that there has been previous tension, though we can't be certain.

http://www.morganhilltimes.com/news/265506-tea-partiers-rally-in-support-of-lohs-students-america

On the saturday after, the tea party felt like they should be there...

Who cares if there were previous tensions. If showing their own countries(all of the students) flag is being disrespectful (they ARE American right?) then as I said before, they or their families got here somehow... and they can take the exact same method back.

It's pathetic that in America showing an American flag can be counted as being disrespectful to a person based on their 'who they are'. In my opinion this just is another example of America failing at assimilating people into their society. The people who get into America, legally or illegally just want to take advantage of America, not be American. Mexicans probably wish that America was just an extension of Mexico and not a separate country.

I guess that'd solve one thing: Border hoppings. :smile:
 
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  • #12
I find the American flag offensive as a symbol of nationalism, but I would never try to ban people from showing it, especially if you are alowing the flag of Mexico. This is the kind of kooky thing that makes the anti-immigration fanatics sound like they have a reasonable fear.
 
  • #13
Galteeth said:
I find the American flag offensive as a symbol of nationalism, but I would never try to ban people from showing it, especially if you are alowing the flag of Mexico. This is the kind of kooky thing that makes the anti-immigration fanatics sound like they have a reasonable fear.

Just curious, you feel nationalism is a bad thing?
 
  • #14
drankin said:
Just curious, you feel nationalism is a bad thing?

I think he said that using the flag to show nationalism is offensive (not just a 'bad thing')... he particularly specifies the American flag.

So now I'm just curious, you feel showing the American flag out of a sense of pride is a thing to take offense to?

I think if I were American I'd find your comment offensive and unnecessary given that you provide no substantial reasoning behind the comment.
 
  • #15
I feel nationalism is unnecessarily divisive. Millions of people have been killed because of nationalism.

That being said, they should have been allowed to wear the shirts. I'd go so far as to say that any country's flag should be allowed.
 
  • #16
Technically the American flag is the ONE flag in the US that "shouldn't" be used as clothing :)

-> "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker's desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general."

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+4USC8"

Remember, this isn't the case of someone being arrested for wearing it. In the school system the authority has the right to censor if they feel it my instigate violence.

According to the supreme court on free speech:
If he does so without “materially and substantially interfer[ing] with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school” and without colliding with the rights of others. . . . [C]onduct by the student, in class or out of it, which for any reason--whether it stems from time, place, or type of behavior-- materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others is, of course, not immunized by the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech.
4

Tinker v. Des Moines, 393 U.S. 503, 89 S. Ct. 733 (1969) @513

They also go on to state that in the Tinker case, the students COULD wear the armbands because this case "was entirely divorced from actually or potentially disruptive conduct by
those participating in it"
whereas in OUR case there was fear of violent retaliation. (maybe?)

To be honest, I'm not sure I care either way. We're fed such filtered news that we have no idea of the true temperament of the students, or whether the principal ACTUALLY felt fear of violence, or even if the students INTENDED on causing a disruption to everyday classes by organizing 5 friends to wear American flag apparel on a primarily Mexican holiday.

I hope it goes to court to get settled out. Too many ignorant people are using this as a launching point about illegal immigration though it has NOTHING to do with it. This isn't a border town, its near San Fransisco. And these are ALL American Students.
 
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  • #17
Times have changed Hepth. Times have changed.
 
  • #18
When I was a kid, wearing the american flag would automatically get you into trouble. Abbie Hoffman learned that the hard way. Now these "revolutionaries" by them at Old Navy and call themselves patriotic americans on Fox News.

How sad!
 
  • #19
chemisttree said:
When I was a kid, wearing the american flag would automatically get you into trouble. Abbie Hoffman learned that the hard way. Now these "revolutionaries" by them at Old Navy and call themselves patriotic americans on Fox News.

How sad!
This is a good point if you are applying it 365 days a year. If only 1 day a year, it loses its strength.
 
  • #20
Forgot the 'smirk' emoticon, Jimmy. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

I was living in Del Rio, TX in the late 60's and early 70's when the Crystal City riots spilled over into our 'neck' of the woods. Back then just wearing cowboy boots (and being blonde/blue) was enough to provoke a response from the roaming gangs at lunch and especially on the last day of school. I spent my entire spring semester practicing sprinting from my last class to the waiting buses just to be ready on that last day of school.

It was real cool living in the middle of that crap!
 
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  • #21
chemisttree said:
When I was a kid, wearing the american flag would automatically get you into trouble. Abbie Hoffman learned that the hard way. Now these "revolutionaries" by them at Old Navy and call themselves patriotic americans on Fox News.
How sad!

I'm afraid I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm glad I was born in an era where your choice of clothing doesn't result in violence.
 
  • #22
As I said cehmisttree times have changed over the wearing of the American flag. It has nothing to do with being a 'revolutionary'.
 
  • #23
A good sign that it's time to move, would be "roaming gangs" who beat you for your taste in clothing. Then again, I could be prejudiced in this, with a huge dose of "who gives a rat's ***?!" People are angry and miserable all over, and they will always find a reason to be so. As long as they keep it at a safe distance, they can rant and rave until they stroke out. Get within 10 feet of me with that attitude, and you get Mozambiqued.
 
  • #24
drankin said:
Just curious, you feel nationalism is a bad thing?

As a symbol of nationalism. I feel so equally about the American flag. But that's because I'm an anarchist, as I've mentioned in previous posts. My feelings about nationalism are a sidetrack, my point was, I find flags offensive for different reasons but I wouldn't attempt to ban them.


P.S. Ok, I'll give you a clue about why flags (as a symbol) are offensive, notice these kids are ready to fight over them, over "whose flag" they support? They're a symbol of tribalism and collectivism.
 
  • #25
Galteeth said:
As a symbol of nationalism. I feel so equally about the American flag. But that's because I'm an anarchist, as I've mentioned in previous posts. My feelings about nationalism are a sidetrack, my point was, I find flags offensive for different reasons but I wouldn't attempt to ban them.


P.S. Ok, I'll give you a clue about why flags (as a symbol) are offensive, notice these kids are ready to fight over them, over "whose flag" they support? They're a symbol of tribalism and collectivism.

Just wondering... do you even know what the word offensive means?
 
  • #26
drankin said:
Just curious, you feel nationalism is a bad thing?

It looks like nationalism is a bad thing because it has less benefits while many harms. You don't need to be nationalist to advocate for policies that promote nation's interests in the long run. IMO.

You can be proud being American while leaching on public welfare, have blind faith in the nation's policies. Or, you can criticize America for its policies while doing something beneficial (taxes, services etc).
 
  • #27
zomgwtf said:
Just wondering... do you even know what the word offensive means?

Um... yes?

In short, something that bugs you.
 
  • #28
rootX said:
It looks like nationalism is a bad thing because it has less benefits while many harms. You don't need to be nationalist to advocate for policies that promote nation's interests in the long run. IMO.

You can be proud being American while leaching on public welfare, have blind faith in the nation's policies. Or, you can criticize America for its policies while doing something beneficial (taxes, services etc).

Perhaps nationalism is the wrong word, but it's really just a mentality of seeing oneself as part of a certain group, whose members you value more highly in the more sense then other humans.

I mean, really this is what this is all about. Mexican Americans, white americans, latinos, or native citizens or whatever. Hostility directed towards people by viewing them as members of some larger collective as oppossed to individuals.
 
  • #29
Galteeth said:
In short, something that bugs you.
I find this to me a simplification of the word. In my usage of the word something has to go a lot further than just bugging you to be considered offensive in the context you are using it in.

I guess your definition works though. However now that you've defined it your earlier post has lost all the interest I had in it. I don't really care if people showing flags in a sense of pride bugs you, that's a personal problem.
 
  • #30
zomgwtf said:
I find this to me a simplification of the word. In my usage of the word something has to go a lot further than just bugging you to be considered offensive in the context you are using it in.

I guess your definition works though. However now that you've defined it your earlier post has lost all the interest I had in it. I don't really care if people showing flags in a sense of pride bugs you, that's a personal problem.

It wasn't the relevant part of the post, I was saying that banning things because people find them "offensive" undercuts the whole basis of freedom of speech.
 

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