This discussion centers on the concept of "touching" at the atomic level, particularly in relation to a perfect circle and a flat surface. Participants clarify that while a perfect geometric shape is an idealization, real-world atoms cannot achieve perfect flatness or roundness due to their electron clouds and atomic structure. The conversation emphasizes that "touching" can be redefined in terms of atomic influence, where atoms can influence each other even at significant distances, although this influence diminishes with distance.
PREREQUISITESStudents of physics, researchers in quantum mechanics, and anyone interested in the fundamental principles of atomic interactions and geometry.
If they are made from atoms, how can they be perfectly flat or circular?Shropcakes said:if you had a perfect circle, and a perfectly flat surface, wouldn't only one atom
As close as possible. I'm not very knowledgeable of physics, so feel free to explain.mrspeedybob said:What do you mean by "touch"? That term does not have a clear meaning at the atomic scale.
When I say perfectly round/flat, I mean as round or flat as atoms can get. I understand that because of the electron cloud, the round or flat part can never be the same.A.T. said:If they are made from atoms, how can they be perfectly flat or circular?
Shropcakes said:When I say perfectly round/flat, I mean as round or flat as atoms can get. I understand that because of the electron cloud, the round or flat part can never be the same.
What is the difference?Nugatory said:Then you've answered your own question. "As round or flat as atoms can get" is not the same thing as "perfectly exactly geometrically round or flat" so you already know that you cannot reason about this system as if it were perfectly flat and perfectly round.
Shropcakes said:What is the difference?
If you understand that on the particle level you just have electron clouds, wobbling atoms and varying force fields, then you should see how pointless it is to ask questions based on idealized geometric shapes.Shropcakes said:I understand that because of the electron cloud, the round or flat part can never be the same.
1. If "touching" is taken to mean that two atoms influence each other, then atoms are always touching. Two atoms that are held a mile apart still have their wavefunctions overlapping. The amplitude of one atom's wavefunction at the point where it overlaps with the other atom's center will be ridiculously small if they are a mile apart, but it will not be zero. In principle, two atoms influence each other no matter where they are in the universe because they extend out in all directions. In practice, if two atoms are more than a few nanometers apart, their influence on each other typically becomes so small that it is overshadowed by the influence of closer atoms. Therefore, although two atoms a mile apart may technically be touching (if we define touching as the overlap of atomic wavefunctions), this touching is typically so insignificant that it can be ignored.
CWatters said:+1
http://sciencequestionswithsurprisinganswers.org/2013/04/16/do-atoms-ever-actually-touch-each-other/