Completeness Property (and Monotone Sequence)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the completeness property of ordered fields, particularly focusing on the monotone sequence property as presented in a classical analysis context. Participants explore the implications of these properties, address misconceptions, and examine examples of sequences in relation to boundedness and convergence.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the definition of a monotone increasing sequence and its boundedness, presenting the sequence (an) = n as an example that is monotonic increasing but not bounded.
  • Another participant clarifies that the statement "every monotone increasing sequence bounded above converges" does not apply to sequences that are not bounded, emphasizing that the definition cannot be contradicted.
  • A later reply acknowledges a misunderstanding regarding the term "converges," indicating that it was misread as a noun rather than a verb, which led to confusion.
  • Another participant introduces a potential trap in understanding the implications of convergence, suggesting that the limit must exist within the field F for completeness, using the rational numbers as an example of a bounded sequence that does not converge in that field.
  • Further elaboration on the example of the sequence involving the sum of reciprocals of squares is provided, illustrating that while it is bounded in the rationals, its limit exists in the reals, thus highlighting the completeness of the real number system.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the definitions and implications of the monotone sequence property, but there are differing interpretations regarding the application of these concepts to specific sequences. The discussion remains unresolved on the nuances of boundedness and convergence in different fields.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the assumptions made about boundedness and convergence, particularly in relation to different ordered fields. The implications of completeness are also dependent on the definitions used, which may not be universally agreed upon.

KT KIM
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I am studying Classical Analysis with Marsden book.
At very first chapter it covers sequence, field, etc...

The book has theorems
1."Let F be an ordered field. We say that the monotone sequence property if every monotone increasing sequence bounded above converges."

2."An ordered field is said to be complete if it obeys the monotone sequence property"

3."There is a unique complete ordered field called the real number system."

so I wonder

for 1. as I know monotone increasing sequence has a definition of
A sequence (an) is monotonic increasing if an+1≥ an for all nN

then what about e.g (an) = n , a1=1 a2=2 a3=3 ... ? this sequence is monotonic increasing but not bounded.
contradicts to 1.

In the same reason, according to 2 and 3. Any sequences in real number system has to obey monotone sequence property and it means it has to be bounded. But I can come up with lots of sequence which has real numbers as it's element that explodes.
like (an) = 2n , or Harmonic sequence.

I am pretty sure I have a critical misconception. but don't know what it is. help me please.
 
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KT KIM said:
then what about e.g (an) = n , a1=1 a2=2 a3=3 ... ? this sequence is monotonic increasing but not bounded.
contradicts to 1.
You cannot contradict a definition.
"every monotone increasing sequence bounded above converges."
Your sequence is not bounded, so this sequence is irrelevant for that statement.

"If it rains, the street gets wet" doesn't make any statement about days where it does not rain.
KT KIM said:
Any sequences in real number system has to obey monotone sequence property and it means it has to be bounded.
No. It means "if it is bounded, then it converges".
 
I finally found out that actually I misread it!, Haha sorry, English is not my primary language. I did read like "sequence 'bounded' above converges." , have thought converges is just a noun.
Anyway I really appreciate your help.
Thank you
 
There is another possible trap around.
"... then it converges" should better be read as
"... then it converges and this implies that the limit exists within F".

Otherwise you could find an example of a sequence which is bounded, but does not converge.
E.g. if F = ##\mathbb{Q} ## then ##a_n = \frac{1}{1^2}+\frac{1}{2^2}+\frac{1}{3^2}+ \dots +\frac{1}{n^2}## is bounded, e.g. by ##2##, but it does not converge, because its limit ##\frac{\pi^2}{6}## does not exist in ##\mathbb{Q} ##. However, it exists in ## \mathbb{R}##. Therefore ##\mathbb{R}## is complete, whereas ##\mathbb{Q} ## is not.
 
fresh_42 said:

E.g. if F = ##\mathbb{Q} ## then ##a_n = \frac{1}{1^2}+\frac{1}{2^2}+\frac{1}{3^2}+ \dots +\frac{1}{n^2}## is bounded, e.g. by ##2##, but it does not converge, because its limit ##\frac{\pi^2}{6}## does not exist in ##\mathbb{Q} ##. However, it exists in ## \mathbb{R}##. Therefore ##\mathbb{R}## is complete, whereas ##\mathbb{Q} ## is not.

Really good one it is, Thank you.
 

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