Curvature of space and dark matter

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between the curvature of space, gravity, and the concepts of dark matter and dark energy. Participants explore theoretical implications, analogies, and the observational evidence surrounding these topics, with a focus on the assumptions underlying the existence of dark matter and the nature of space curvature.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the assumption that the curvature of space must be caused by matter, suggesting that dark matter might be an assumption based on the need for more gravity to explain galaxy formation.
  • Another participant references a Wikipedia article on observational evidence, implying that there is substantial information supporting the existence of dark matter.
  • A different participant asserts that all matter causes gravitational pull, and since observations indicate more gravitational pull than can be attributed to ordinary matter, the term "dark matter" is used for whatever is causing this extra gravity.
  • One participant raises questions about the evidence for the universe's accelerating expansion, specifically regarding redshift and luminosity of photons, and proposes a potential 3-D analog of an expanding sphere that could explain the observations.
  • Another participant introduces the concept of gravitational waves in relation to the analogy of pressure waves in a slinky, suggesting a complexity in understanding the effects of gravity and curvature of space.
  • A participant questions the implications of a graviton as a mediating boson, speculating on its potential behavior within a black hole and its effects on gravitational influence outside the event horizon.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of dark matter and the assumptions surrounding space curvature. There is no consensus on the necessity of dark matter or the implications of gravitational effects, indicating an unresolved discussion with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various observational evidence and theoretical frameworks, but there are limitations in the discussion regarding the definitions of dark matter and dark energy, as well as the assumptions underlying the models presented.

moronthat
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Assuming gravity is matter curving space as Einstein says, isn't our theory of dark matter just an assumption that because more gravity is required to explain galaxy formation that it must be caused by unseen matter? Why do we assume that the curvature of space required must be caused by matter?

Another question, using a slinky as an analogy. Everyone is familiar with stretching one and observing traveling pressure waves along it. Those pressure waves are like space curvatures caused by mass. But in a slinky the high pressure waves are also accompanied by low pressure waves to compensate, sort of an equal and opposite reaction. Has anyone ever thought that the curvature of space caused by gravity has a similar effect of less curved space near it to compensate? If that's true, wouldn't that act like dark energy?
 
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Why do we assume that the curvature of space required must be caused by matter?
There is a Wikipedia article with 3570 words on observational evidence. If you don't understand something in it, maybe you could ask a specific question?
Has anyone ever thought that the curvature of space caused by gravity has a similar effect of less curved space near it to compensate?
Sounds like gravitational waves. But these are a bit more complicated than pressure waves.
 
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We know that all matter causes a gravitational pull, as described by Newton's law of gravity. Many observations tell us that there is more gravitational pull out there than can be ascribed to ordinary matter. Whatever is causing the extra gravity is "matter", almost by definition. Since we don't know what it is, and it doesn't emit light, we call it "dark matter". What else would you like to call it?
 
I graduated more decades ago than I like to admit but I got curious and after some research I am blocked by these questions. It seems like the whole evidence for our universe expansion accelerating is that photons which travel a very long space time path arrive with less energy than expected (more red shift and less luminosity). We can detect no direction which seems to point to the center or edge of the universe. If I frame this problem in 2 dimensions I find this only matches objects all on the surface of an expanding sphere. Is there a 3-D analog where all visible objects are on the surface of an expanding extra dimensional sphere? Is this ruled out due to evidence I can't find through reviewing information on the web? There are a number of searches going on for a graviton. If there was a force mediating bosun wouldn't it be captured within a black hole and cause a black hole to not have any gravitational effect outside of its event horizon?
 

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