Did Black Holes appear in the first billion years?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the formation of black holes in the early universe, specifically addressing how and why black holes could appear within the first billion years after the Big Bang, as opposed to stars. The conversation explores theoretical frameworks, implications of early cosmic conditions, and the dynamics of matter accretion during that period.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the early universe's conditions allowed for direct collapse into black holes due to the absence of external gravitational fields that would typically inhibit such large-scale accretion.
  • One participant suggests that the initial accretions of matter must have been on a very large scale, making the formation of black holes inevitable without intermediate stages.
  • Another participant questions how accretion could occur given the rapid expansion of the universe during that era, indicating a potential conflict between expansion and gravitational attraction.
  • A later reply emphasizes that while the universe has always been expanding, the rate of expansion slowed after the initial inflation, allowing local gravitational forces to dominate and facilitate the formation of gravitationally bound systems.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the mechanisms of black hole formation and the role of cosmic expansion, indicating that multiple competing perspectives remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference the initial conditions of the universe, the nature of gravitational forces during early cosmic times, and the implications of inflation, but do not reach a consensus on the specifics of black hole formation processes.

wolram
Gold Member
Dearly Missed
Messages
4,411
Reaction score
551
The tittle says it all really, how did Black Holes appear so early in the universe, why not stars?
arXiv:1601.05473 [pdf, ps, other]
The Early Growth of the First Black Holes
Jarrett L. Johnson (LANL), Francesco Haardt (Universita dell'Insubria)
Comments: 13 pages, 9 figures, invited review submitted to PASA
Subjects: Astrophysics of Galaxies (astro-ph.GA); Cosmology and Nongalactic Astrophysics (astro-ph.CO)

With detections of quasars powered by increasingly massive black holes (BHs) at increasingly early times in cosmic history over the past decade, there has been correspondingly rapid progress made on the theory of early BH formation and growth. Here we review the emerging picture of how the first massive BHs formed from the primordial gas and then grew to supermassive scales. We discuss the initial conditions for the formation of the progenitors of these seed BHs, the factors dictating the initial masses with which they form, and their initial stages of growth via accretion, which may occur at super-Eddington rates. Finally, we briefly discuss how these results connect to large-scale simulations of the growth of supermassive BHs over the course of the first billion years following the Big Bang.
 
Space news on Phys.org
What this implies to me is that the initial accretions of matter following the very nearly uniform emergence of stable atoms must have been accretions of a very large scale.
So extremely large in scale that direct collapse to black hole would be inevitable without any intermediate stages.
In the Universe as it is today, such extremely large scale accretions would be very unlikely because now the Universe is filled with galaxies and clusters of galaxies whose collective gravitational effects would prevent such a very large accretion in one location from occurring.
In the early universe those external gravity fields were not present, so there was nothing preventing extremely large scale accretion.
 
Last edited:
Thank you for the reply Rootone, as i understand the universe was expanding rapidly in that era so how was accretion possible?
 
Was this a stupid question?
 
No it's not a stupid question, sorry to take a while getting back.
My reply was just a reasoned guess based on intuition only.
No external gravity fields = nothing to perturb really massive accretions from accumulating.

While it seems true that the Universe has always been expanding, the inflation part (hypothetical but generally thought to be likely), lasted for a very short time.
After that, while still expanding, the expansion had slowed to a rate that would allow gravity locally to be stronger than the overall expansion.
After all that is the situation we have appear to have now. - expansion overall, but locally containing gravitationally bound systems which are not expanding.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: wolram

Similar threads

  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
3K
  • · Replies 134 ·
5
Replies
134
Views
12K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
4K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
6K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K