Did nature or physicists invent the renormalization group?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the nature of the renormalization group (RG) in theoretical physics, questioning whether it is a human invention or if it describes inherent processes in nature. The conversation explores philosophical implications, the role of mathematics, and the utility of intuitive models in understanding physical theories.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Meta-discussion

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the RG is a systematic framework for building effective field theories by managing fluctuations across scales.
  • Others argue that the question of whether the RG describes something nature does is philosophical, as it cannot be tested experimentally.
  • A participant suggests that mathematics may be discovered rather than invented, positing that it serves as an underlying algorithm of the world.
  • Another participant asserts that physicists themselves are part of nature, which complicates the discussion of whether the RG is a natural phenomenon.
  • Some participants emphasize the usefulness of intuitive mental models for understanding nature, while others caution against conflating these models with actual processes in nature.
  • There is a recognition that intuitive models, while helpful, may not accurately reflect the complexities of nature.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the philosophical implications of the RG and the nature of mathematics. There is no consensus on whether the RG is merely a computational tool or if it reflects something inherent in nature. The utility and accuracy of intuitive models are also debated, with no clear agreement reached.

Contextual Notes

The discussion touches on philosophical questions regarding the nature of mathematical truths and their relation to physical reality, which remain unresolved. Participants highlight the subjective nature of what constitutes an "intuitive" model.

Giulio Prisco
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Or in other words:

The renormalization group is a systematic theoretical framework and a set of elegant (and often effective) mathematical techniques to build effective field theories, valid at large scales, by smoothing out irrelevant fluctuations at smaller scales.

But does the renormalization group also describe something that nature does?

If you think the question doesn't make sense, please say so but also explain why.
 
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Whether physics describes nature or not is a question for experiments and you can only test quantitative predictions. You can never test whether nature ”actually does” something. That is a purely philosophical question. All you can say is ”nature behaves in accordance with the observable predictions of the the theory”.

That being said, I think you should regard the RG as more of a computational tool than as a theory of its own.
 
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This question extends towards mathematics as a whole, not only some theoretical physics formalism.

Is mathematics a part of nature? Is it discovered or invented?
I actually like to think that mathematics is the underlying algorithm of the world. We do not invent it, we discover it. The only thing we invent are the symbols like for numbers or signs.

On the other hand, a mathematician can start form all kinds of crazy axioms, that he might have invented himself, and carry out the logic to get to new results. Even if the axioms themselves can't be found in nature. So it's really not that simple.
 
Physicists are part of nature.
 
Orodruin said:
You can never test whether nature ”actually does” something.

Right of course, but intuitive mental models of "what nature actually does' are useful thinking aids.

Orodruin said:
That being said, I think you should regard the RG as more of a computational tool than as a theory of its own.

Thanks, this is the answer I was looking for.
 
Giulio Prisco said:
Right of course, but intuitive mental models of "what nature actually does' are useful thinking aids.
I respectfully disagree. Intuitive models serve only as thinking aids (and it is unclear what should be labled ”intuitive”). I think you should not mistake that for ”nature does this”.
 
Orodruin said:
I respectfully disagree. Intuitive models serve only as thinking aids (and it is unclear what should be labled ”intuitive”). I think you should not mistake that for ”nature does this”.

I don't - but I am also persuaded that would be unable to think effectively without intuitive models. I need intuitive models, even if they are not entirely right or mostly wrong.

"Intuitive" is something that you understand quickly, easily and permanently. Of course, what is intuitive for me may not be so intuitive for you and vice versa.
 

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