Difficulty checking group axioms

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the conditions under which a set equipped with a binary associative operation can be classified as a group. Participants explore two specific conditions (1 and 2) and their implications for group structure, focusing on the existence of identity elements and inverses.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Post 1 outlines two conditions (1 and 2) that are proposed to imply the existence of a group structure, emphasizing the need to show that condition (2) leads to a group.
  • Post 2 agrees that conditions (1) and (2) imply the existence of an identity and inverses but questions how the associative law follows from condition (2).
  • Post 3 challenges the assumption that condition (2) guarantees the existence of an identity element, specifically questioning the implications of having a right identity and right inverses.
  • Post 4 seeks clarification on whether the goal is to show that elements commute with their right inverses and the right identity element.
  • Post 5 references external material that purportedly proves the commutation of group elements with their inverses and identity elements.
  • Post 6 expresses relief at the discussion, indicating the problem was frustrating but has been somewhat resolved through the exchange.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the implications of conditions (1) and (2) regarding identity and inverses, but there is disagreement on how these conditions ensure the associative property and the existence of an identity element. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of condition (2) alone.

Contextual Notes

Participants have not fully resolved the implications of the conditions presented, particularly regarding the associative law and the existence of identity elements. There are assumptions about the nature of the operation and the elements involved that remain unexamined.

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Let ##G## be a set equipped with a binary associative operation ##\cdot##.

In both of the following situations, we have a group:

1) ##G## is not empty, and for all ##a,b\in G##, there exists an ##x,y\in G## such that ##bx=a## and ##yb=a##.

2) There exists a special element ##e\in G## such that ##xe = x## for all ##x##. And (if we fix this ##e##), then for each ##x\in G##, there exists some ##x^\prime \in G## such that ##xx^\prime = e##.

For reference, ##G## equipped with a binary associative operation is a group if there exists an element ##e\in G## such that ##xe=ex=x##. And for any ##x\in G##, there is an ##x^\prime\in G## such that ##xx^\prime = x^\prime x = e##.

I've been thinking for hours and I really can't seem to figure out why either (1) or (2) forms a group.

It is easy to show that if we have a group, then ##(1)## and ##(2)## hold.

Furthermore, I know that if ##(1)## holds, then ##(2)## holds as well. Indeed, take ##a## a special element, then we can find an ##e## such that ##ae=a## (for this special ##a##). Now, take ##b## arbitrary, then there is an ##x## such that ##b = xa = xae = be##. So we have found the right element ##e##. The existence of ##x^\prime## for every ##x## is now obvious.

So it suffices to show that ##(2)## implies that we have a group. But I really can't figure it out.
 
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Certainly, it is true that if either (1) or (2) holds, we have an identity and each element has an inverse. So the only thing left is the "associative law" for any a, b, and c in the set, (ab)c= a(bc). I don't see how that follows from (2).
 
Associative is given, so there is no need to check that.

I don't see why we have an identity, if ##(2)## holds. Sure, we have that ##xe= x## and ##xx^\prime = e##. But why do we also have ##ex= x## and ##x^\prime x = e##?
 
Just for clarity - you want to show that given a right inverse, a right identity element, and associativity (conditions 1 and 2) that each member of a group i) commutes with its own right inverse and that ii) commutes with the right identity element?
 
Awesome! Thanks a lot. That was a pretty annoying problem, haha.
 

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